Is Gibson a nazi!?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan


The only one who suggested that Gibson is a Nazi is Gepap, and then, only to try to spark controversy and interest in this thread.

So yes, it is a bit silly.

Notice how the very first thing I write in the FIRST POST is "No, he is not, but.."

Reading is a wonderful skill, one of the Three R's, as it were.

As Cali suggested, the word "nazi" is in the title to titilate.

[Guynemer]

Yes, the movie is based on the New Testament, there's no debate about that; it's not the New Testament that is anti-Semitic.

However, from what I read, it seems as if the Jewish characters--apart from Josh & his buds--are depicted in all the grand old Jewish stereotypes; i.e. beady eyes, hooked noses, greedy, etc. That is where the problem will lie, IF that is indeed the case.

[Kropotkin]

One important thing to consider when one is trying to figure out if it was jews that called for the excecution of Jesus depends on the understanding of the word Messiah, or Kristos in greece. Today we think of it as a word to describe the son of god in the christian religion. Back then it probably had its original meaning, that mean that anyone called Messiah was or claimed to be king of the jews of David's house. In this case, the romans had plenty of good and sound reasons to kill him. If he only had religious goals, he might not have been much of a trouble for the romans directly.

When you're trying to sell the message of christianity to roman citizens it might not be a good idea to say that the son of god has been murdered by the roman govt. It would lead to all kinds of trouble.

[Agathon]

And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose.

I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions.

Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap


Notice how the very first thing I write in the FIRST POST is "No, he is not, but.."

And notice I said you did it to spark interest in this thread. Maybe I should have added "but he renounced it right afterwards", but you certainly intended to spark intrest and controversy with the title. You don't try to suggest someone is a nazi and then promptly refute it ig you don't intend to spark interest and controversy.

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by Agathon
And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose.

I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions.

Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

(gets up out of seat) Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (sits back down again)

This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism. Hatred is not a family value. Teach that instead. It's much more effective.

[Zero]

jesus was a jew. And I hate J.A.Ps

Thats my contribution to the thread.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon
And these wild and unfounded accusations of anti-semitism at anyone who criticises Israel or the Jewish religion or particular Jewish people are really beginning to get up my nose.

I'm a person who has in the past publicly stuck up for the NZ Jewish community against real anti-semites (and I probably did myself out of a prospective job by doing so), but this sort of behaviour threatens to devalue such actions.

Judaism, the Jewish people and Israel are not special. They are no more immune to criticism than any other relgion, race or country and they have no right to special consideration from anyone nor a right to accuse every critic of being a racist.

and who accused Mel Gibson of being a racist? Some individuals did raise concerns about the film (based on a controversial script IIRC), which may be valid - unless youve seen the film, you really dont know.

This is exactly why i was concerned about this thread, and its heading. The implication is once again, "OH Boy, there go those Jews, accusing everyone of antisemitism "


I would suggest criticism of members of a group as group memebrs IS ipso facto bigoted - whether the group is Jews, blacks, Maoris, Christians, whites, gays straights, Arabs, muslims, etc.

Criticism of a religion would be something different, but i find that such criticism coming from people who know very little about the religion, is usually stupid, and quite often comes out of an agenda of bigotry - I see plenty of that in America, where a lot of ignoramuses claim to understand the essential nature of Islam.

Criticism of states is of course proper, whether that state be Israel, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, France, the US. It is not impossible that some or many of those making certain criticsisms of Israel are in fact motivated by anti-semitism, just as some unfair criticisms of black african states are motivated by anti-black racism. Any claim that someone is bigoted should be open to contest, of course, but it should not become unacceptable to call someone a bigot.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cookie Monster


(gets up out of seat) Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (sits back down again)

This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism. Hatred is not a family value. Teach that instead. It's much more effective.

actually the ADL vigourously opposes ALL forms of bigotry. You might want to learn more about them.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Cookie Monster

This trend can be very counterproductive. In a desperate attempt to stamp out anti-semitism they risk driving many towards antisemitism.

This is exactly what worries me. Although I think the anti-semitism it will drive people to is not the "Jews are evil moneygrubber" but "Jews are consumed with their own sense of righteousness and think they are better than everyone else".

+ I think the latter is far more dangerous in the long term.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon
I'd just like to point out Mel Gibson's history of making extremely anti-English films in which the English are portrayed as fascists, sexual perverts, and evil sadists.

There were no mass complaints about this, although three of his films are notoriously anti-English: Braveheart, The Patriot and Gallipoli.

It's well known Mel doesn't like the Poms.

PS. He also isn't fond of gays.

actually i remember some english getting quite upset about "the patriot"

Ive never seen any of those 3 films btw.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I haven't seen the movie, but I'd hazard a guess that certain people are being over-sensitive. The fact is that jewish leaders were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.

i havent seen the movie either, which is why i am withholding judgement.

By the way, one might keep in mind that the FACT you and others keep quoting is know only from the NT. One might as well site as fact that the world was destroyed in a flood in the time of Noah (yes, i know the NT has some value as a source for that period, but the above statement is NOT a fact, from the point of view of secular historians)

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

and who accused Mel Gibson of being a racist? Some individuals did raise concerns about the film (based on a controversial script IIRC), which may be valid - unless youve seen the film, you really dont know.

On CNN someone accused the film of being intentionally anti-semitic. Isn't that enough?

This is exactly why i was concerned about this thread, and its heading. The implication is once again, "OH Boy, there go those Jews, accusing everyone of antisemitism "

Of course it will because that is increasingly becoming the reality. Frivolous accusations of anti-Semitism threaten to obscure and trivialize the real thing.

I would suggest criticism of members of a group as group memebrs IS ipso facto bigoted - whether the group is Jews, blacks, Maoris, Christians, whites, gays straights, Arabs, muslims, etc.

But that's not what most people do when they criticise Israel, yet people like Lawrence Summers want to call this antisemitism.

Criticism of a religion would be something different, but i find that such criticism coming from people who know very little about the religion, is usually stupid, and quite often comes out of an agenda of bigotry - I see plenty of that in America, where a lot of ignoramuses claim to understand the essential nature of Islam.

That's true, but it doesn't mean that it is wrong to criticize a religion.

Criticism of states is of course proper, whether that state be Israel, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, France, the US. It is not impossible that some or many of those making certain criticsisms of Israel are in fact motivated by anti-semitism, just as some unfair criticisms of black african states are motivated by anti-black racism.

And that is true. In fact it is highly likely that some criticisms of Israel are antisemitic, but that does not mean that all are, but yet I have seen, again and again, attempts to tar all critics with the racist brush.

Any claim that someone is bigoted should be open to contest, of course, but it should not become unacceptable to call someone a bigot.

I never said that. What I am complaining about is the tendency to call all critics bigots in order to deflect criticism.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

actually i remember some english getting quite upset about "the patriot"

But I never saw that, and I'm fairly attentive to the media. This current rash of complaining is all over the press.

[Cookie Monster]

The fact that the ADL and the Rabbis are so violently condemning this movie as anti-semitic tells me that the next step is to condemn the New Testament of the Bible to be anti-semitic. Is this true or false?