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  • Is Gibson a nazi!?

    No, he isn't, but his movie The Passion is being labelled as anti-semitic. Also, he has a running feud with the Vatican now about whether the Pope gave the movie a thumb up.

    2 Jewish Leaders Upset After Viewing 'Passion'
    By RANDY KENNEDY

    Published: January 23, 2004


    wo of the nation's most prominent Jewish leaders said yesterday that they had watched recent versions of Mel Gibson's unreleased movie "The Passion of the Christ" and found it anti-Semitic and incendiary in the way it depicted the role of the Jews in Jesus's death.

    One said he was angered that a scene he and other Jewish leaders had found particularly offensive remained in the version of the movie he saw, though Mr. Gibson had once said publicly he would remove it.

    The leaders — Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, and Abraham H. Foxman, the national director of the Anti-Defamation League in New York — have been critical of the movie during the last year as scripts and versions of the film have leaked out. But until recently neither man had seen the movie because Mr. Gibson and his company, Icon Productions, had declined to provide them with a copy or to allow them into special screenings.

    Rabbi Hier said yesterday that he had seen a version of the movie provided to him several weeks ago by a friend, whom he would not identify. Mr. Foxman said that he saw the movie on Wednesday night, sneaking into a screening for pastors and other religious leaders held at a large church near Orlando, Fla. Mr. Gibson answered questions after the screening, Mr. Foxman said.

    While it is not known whether the version either man watched will be the final cut, Rabbi Hier and Mr. Foxman said they were angered and saddened that Mr. Gibson, despite his insistence that the movie is not anti-Semitic, had included many scenes that place the blame for the Crucifixion squarely on the Jews, not the Romans.

    Mr. Foxman said that he respected Mr. Gibson's religious convictions and believed that artistically "he is a genius," but felt that the film, at least in the version he watched, would fan anti-Semitism and would set back the dialogue between Jews and Christians by decades.

    "Do I think it will trigger pogroms? I don't think it will," he said. "But will it strengthen and legitimize anti-Semitic feelings? Yes, it will."

    Rabbi Hier said he was "horrified" by the movie, which he said depicted all Jews, except those who were Jesus's followers, as villainous, with dark beards and eyes, "like Rasputin."

    A spokesman for Mr. Gibson, Alan Nierob, said he would not comment on the criticisms, other than to say, "The filmmakers completely respect these gentlemen's right of freedom of expression, and expect the same in return." He said that Mr. Gibson was still working on the film and was unavailable to comment. The film is to be released nationwide on Feb. 25, which is Ash Wednesday.

    Mr. Foxman said that in one scene in the version he watched, the Jewish high priest Caiaphas calls down a kind of curse on the Jewish people by declaring, of the Crucifixion: "His blood be on us, and on our children." In the Gospel of St. Matthew, Chapter 27, Verse 25, the only place in the Bible in which that statement appears, it is said to come from a crowd of Jews shouting for Jesus's death. The message of that passage, that the Jewish people were guilty of deicide, was repudiated by the Second Vatican Council. Mr. Gibson practices a traditionalist form of Roman Catholicism that does not recognize the changes of Vatican II.

    In an article in The New Yorker last year, Mr. Gibson said he had decided, with some regrets, to cut the scene in which the high priest makes the statement. If he had left it in, he told the magazine, critics of his depiction of the Jews would "be coming after me at my house; they'd come to kill me."

    But in the version of the movie that Mr. Foxman saw, a version that is also being screened for specially selected audiences in Chicago and Dallas, the scene remained. Rabbi Hier said the scene was not in the version he saw several weeks ago.

    Rabbi James Rudin, senior inter-religious adviser for the American Jewish Committee, saw the movie in August in Houston at a screening for Jewish and Christian leaders, and then saw it again on Wednesday, when he openly attended the screening near Orlando, at Calvary Assembly in Winter Park.

    He said it was "highly disturbing" to discover that the scene depicting the verse from Matthew, which was not in the version he saw in August, had been re-inserted. He said that even the most noxious Passion plays omit that verse, which he called "the religious taproot for what has become the blood libel, and collective guilt and the charge of deicide against the Jews."

    Mr. Nierob said that the film was being edited and that he did not know if the version being screened for large groups around the country was close to the final version or whether the scene involving the high priest would be kept.

    The movie's distributor, Newmarket Films, says it plans an initial release on 2,000 screens and has called the flood of ticket requests "a tsunami."

    Mr. Foxman said that at the Winter Park screening audience members were asked to sign an agreement that, according to a copy he read to a reporter over the telephone, required them to keep confidential their "exposure, knowledge and opinions of the film" and of a question-and-answer session with Mr. Gibson. But the agreement, as read by Mr. Foxman, added that "pastors and church leaders are free to speak out in support of the movie and your opinions resulting from today's exposure to this project and its producer."

    Mr. Foxman said he did not sign the agreement. He said he had initially felt bad about sneaking into the showing, but later changed his mind. "I decided yesterday, `Why am I uncomfortable? Let him be uncomfortable,' " he said, referring to Mr. Gibson. "For him to say, `You can only see it if you love it?' I felt it was my moral duty to see it."
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

  • #2
    GePap:
    You really have a problem about thread titles. "Gibson" just doesn't ring like "Mel Gibson", and I thought this thread was about US internal politics again.
    That's like your thread about the Mars probe not emitting: nobody clicked on your thread because nobody knew what it was about

    As for the topic: the New Testament teaches that Jews wanted Jesus dead, and that the Pontius Pilate didn't care. I'm not aware the Jews having ever denied this. And even today, the most important theological difference between the Jews and Christians is that the formers don't consider Jesus as the Messiah.

    It's obvious the rough population of that time wanted to get rid of a false prophet that was beginning to be dangerous. I don't see anything antisemitic in saying so.

    Imagine in 2000 years, when Africa will rule the world, that African directors are deemed as not PC enough when they make a movie about white or Arabic slavers
    "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
    "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
    "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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    • #3
      I don't have a lot of faith in the ADL after the got caught spying on progressive groups in Califiornia.
      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Spiffor
        GePap:
        You really have a problem about thread titles. "Gibson" just doesn't ring like "Mel Gibson", and I thought this thread was about US internal politics again.
        That's like your thread about the Mars probe not emitting: nobody clicked on your thread because nobody knew what it was about
        Oh, come on..first of all, what other "Gibson" is there, unless you are from Australia, but then why would I be talking about it?

        I like mytery in my threads. Saying "Fundamentalist Catholic Australian Actor Mel Gibson's new movie about the last few days of Christ's life called the Passion is being labelled by prominent Jewish Leaders in the US as anti-semitic, what do you think?" just does not work.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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        • #5
          He can't be one just for that movie.
          DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTIS

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          • #6
            Originally posted by chegitz guevara
            I don't have a lot of faith in the ADL after the got caught spying on progressive groups in Califiornia.
            No, I have little respect for Abe Foxman either, but I have never seen any reason to distrust Rabbi Marvin Hier.
            If you don't like reality, change it! me
            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Spiffor
              GePap:
              You really have a problem about thread titles. "Gibson" just doesn't ring like "Mel Gibson", and I thought this thread was about US internal politics again.
              That's like your thread about the Mars probe not emitting: nobody clicked on your thread because nobody knew what it was about

              As for the topic: the New Testament teaches that Jews wanted Jesus dead, and that the Pontius Pilate didn't care. I'm not aware the Jews having ever denied this. And even today, the most important theological difference between the Jews and Christians is that the formers don't consider Jesus as the Messiah.

              It's obvious the rough population of that time wanted to get rid of a false prophet that was beginning to be dangerous. I don't see anything antisemitic in saying so.

              Imagine in 2000 years, when Africa will rule the world, that African directors are deemed as not PC enough when they make a movie about white or Arabic slavers
              There is something terribly "odd" with the assertion that Gibson is wrong to place the primary blame for the crucifixion of Jesus on the Jews and not the Romans. What do the Jews teach themselves about these events? Do they have a more accurate history?
              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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              • #8
                Well, if you try to look at the NT as it is, it's quite anti-jewish in a way. It was probably written in that way as the early christians wanted to distance themselves from the jewish mainstream religion. There's quite a number of indications from other sources that points to history being quite different from the stories of the NT. It might actually have been the other way around; the jewish population wanted to spare Jesus' life while Pontius Pilate wanted him dead. The famous roman was a real brute according to other sources. There's always some that will 'cry wolf' when there's anything about jews in culture. Mel Gibson and his sect is probably a bunch of nuts for so many other reasons that closet antisemitism.

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                • #9
                  An inflammatory religous film? Who'd a thunk!
                  Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                  Do It Ourselves

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                  • #10
                    Discrimination and racism are not linked to actions a group DID commit. They just don't want it out becasue it makes them look bad in a Christian light.

                    It would actually be dispicable not to include it. How would the Jews feel if we didn't mention the holocaust in WWII histories so we don't have to remind the Germans of their past (extreme comparison, but it is a rediculous initiative by these Rabbis)?
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                    • #11
                      Or if we never mentioned the Inquisition to not remind Christians of their dirty work?
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                      • #12
                        Let´s wait if an Israeli ambassador will get his hands on the master copy of the movie.....
                        Blah

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                        • #13
                          I thought this thread was about Debbie Gibson dressing in tight black leather covered with swastikas.

                          Damn.
                          "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                          "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                          "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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                          • #14
                            On the history of the thing- Jewish politics at the time was highly charged, with many different sects coming up, most of them apocalyptic or messiahnic, challenging the Jewish officals and their Roman overlords. This all happens only a few decades before the first great jewish revolt. Jesus was part of this charge atmosphere. To think "the Jews killed Jesus", one must first differentiate Jesus form the Jews, the apostles from the Jews, think that Christianity at this point is somehow distinct. It was not-Jesus was a Jew working withn the charged Jewish politics of the day. Most certainly he had detractors among the Jewish populace, opposing sects, political opponents and competitors- how could he not? BUt it was the Romans who killed him for challenging their final authority.

                            The gospels were written after the Jewish revolt, when Jews were not very popular in the empire, and the Church forfathers were trying to spred the faith to the non-jewish populace of the empire, so making the Jews bad guys made sense.
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I doubt the Romans would have wanted him dead just for bieng a religious heretic. The Romans were notriously tolerant to other religions as long as they didn't

                              a) Start a revolt against them in that religions name.
                              b) Interfere with tax collection.
                              c) cause gerneral unrest in the population.

                              Hell they adobted tenents of most religions they encountered. They had a problem with the Jews becasue they participated in a, b, and c. Jesus wasn't do any of them, except maybe c by pissing off the Jewish leadership. That of course would be the reason the Romans agreed to execute him.

                              As far as the Bible being baised against Jews, I am sure it is. They did afterall beleive them responsible for the death of God on earth, which is probobly true. But in the formative years of the Bible, which was far from concrete for a few hundred years post Christ, I can't see the Christians having anything but a greater biased against the Romans.
                              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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