German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Saras
Systematic.

But you are a sneaky ***** in phrasing the question - no one argued that Germany as a state was NOT systematically eradicating entire groups of people.

I for example said that there were, in fact, chivalrous acts and acts of sheer bravery, born from love of "Vaterland" or other motivations that are not sinister in essence. You in turn painted the WHOLE german nation with one black brush, ridiculing a book you HAVEN'T read just because it was written by a Waffen SS soldier.

Bull.

I have never said that all German people committed atrocities. The German jews obviously did not.

What I have said is that the German soldiers in the Waffen-SS and the German Army routinely committed atrocities and that these atrocities were endorsed and encouraged by the German government.

Meanwhile, you claim that the Waffen-SS were chivalrous. Okay, prove it.

As for all this "Oh they were just patriotic", that doesn't change the fact that the Germany Army and SS in Russia killed millions of civilians and POWs behind the battlelines.

[Alexander's Horse]

And let's not forget the German army helped out with atrocities when requested.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hitler has his reputation becasue he was the most visible to the current genertions, and of course it is recorded for posterity in a manor that no other has ever been. The Soviets an Mao killed more poeple, and that is a fact, but they simply kept it under wraps better. Is that their get out of jail free card? I hope not.

Just because you repeated claim "it's a fact" doesn't make it true.

Hitler was responsible for the death of 40 million people, more than Mao and Stalin. These deaths were the result of a deliberate policies: policies of war, terror and genocide.

The millions murdered by Stalin died because of policies of terror, but also a result of the war started by Hitler. Had Hitler not started the war, many of these people would not have died. So Hitler and the Nazis are equally, if not more, responsible.

Many of the people who died during Mao's time, died because poor policy decisions rather than a deliberate policy of murder. To include Mao with Hitler and Stalin is simply ridiculous.

[Urban Ranger]

I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

[mrmitchell]

In the "major outrages" thread, I listed what I thought were the 5 major criteria for an outrage to be recognized. The Holocaust met all five of them.

[TCO]

Germans are not real people. They are just dehumanized ragdolls to die in our ww2 movies. They exist to die for us.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

They scared Rabe, who was an industrialist/opportunist Nazi, not an ideological one.

However, the Nazi leadership in Berlin saw fit to sweep Rabe's report under the rug and keep him silent on Nanking. I suspect they were scared the insane brutality fo the IJA would revolt Germans against an ally, but I doubt the actual massacres made them feel bad.

[Alexander's Horse]

It's hobson's choice but I think Hitler was worse than Stalin in the mass murderer/evil stakes. The racism is so awful. Not worse by much though.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

Nanking Massacre

[Alexander's Horse]

Well the IJA brutality was certainly bad but it was more feudal than modern and more by accident than design in some cases (like mistreatment of POW's). So I don't think it's in the same class as the sleak modern German murder machine.

The chilling difference is Nazi horrors were always intentional, meticulously planned, industrialised and used the latest technology. This is what sets them apart and troubles thinkers so much - modernisation was supposed to overcome barbarism and irrational atavistic hatred but the Nazis showed this wasn't true.

[Ben Kenobi]

"And this also," said Marlow suddenly, "has been one of the dark places of the earth."

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hardly,

The Mongul hordes slaughtered millions in India becasue they were a "waste of life," and ask any Russian or Chinese historian if the 10s of millions the horde killed there did not have any racial conotations. Caesar in Gaul killed 10 million in as many year as WWII. Hitler has his reputation becasue he was the most visible to the current genertions, and of course it is recorded for posterity in a manor that no other has ever been. The Soviets an Mao killed more poeple, and that is a fact, but they simply kept it under wraps better. Is that their get out of jail free card? I hope not.

Where did you get these figures? The whole population of Gaul was like 3-4 million during Roman times.

[Drake Tungsten]

German atrocities were systematic, just like everyone else's.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Tingkai


As for all this "Oh they were just patriotic", that doesn't change the fact that the Germany Army and SS in Russia killed millions of civilians and POWs behind the battlelines.

I'm tired of this. No one claims Waffen SS were chivalrous. They rand the death camps, for crissakes. The fighting units, otoh, were mostly brave, tenacious in difficulty and sometimes chivalrous (and sometimes "took pot shots at prisoners"). They were NOT a monolithic sea of Castle of Wolfenstein Fritzes.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Saras
I'm tired of this. No one claims Waffen SS were chivalrous. They rand the death camps, for crissakes. The fighting units, otoh, were mostly brave, tenacious in difficulty and sometimes chivalrous

Saras, I've asked you several times before, and I'll ask you again: provide factual examples of how the Waffen-SS were "sometimes chivalrous." Provide us with examples of their sense of fair play, their compassion, their courtesy.