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German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

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  • Originally posted by Sandman
    I'll post a more more full critique of Stalin later, but:

    He failed to recognise the threat of German invasion, despite the huge warnings.

    His refusal to consider retreat as an option allowed the Germans to repeatedly encircle and destroy Red Army units.

    His brutality gave the Germans a temporary liberators bonus, and his secret police thought nothing of jamming the railways up with deportees, slowing the evacuation of workers and machinery.

    He purged the Red Army of its innovative officers, and promoted his Civil War cronies, who attempted to turn back the clock and institute a WW1 style infantry/artillery combination, with tanks dispersed between infantry groups. The sort of tactics that had failed the French, who also had decent heavy tanks.

    He was invisible for the first week of the invasion, hiding out in his villa.
    And do not forget how he left general Bor Komorowski and the Polish Home Army to be ground into mincemeat. And forbade US B17s from flying supply missions (until their participation was meaningless).

    And did Bor turn around and join the Nazis?

    No he didn't. I wouldn't say Stalin was an imbecile... but as a highly accomplished mass murderer, "imbecile" is a step up on the human ladder to what Stalin was.
    Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
    "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

    Comment


    • shawnmmcc: I agree that FDR openly baited and taunted the Germans, and that he wanted the US in the fight against Hitler, but that's not the same as forcing them to fight.

      Had Hitler been smart and not declared war, FDR would have faced extensive pressure to concentrate soley on the Japanese. Even with Germany declaring war, there was pressure to focus on Japan first, then Germany.
      Golfing since 67

      Comment


      • The Waffen SS, the United States Army Air Force under Curtiss LeMay and Robert S. McNamara, communist forces under Stalin, the Imperial Japanese army and British Bomber Command under Air Marshal Harris, all engaged in massive war crimes.

        The problem is of course that the Allied war crimes are not ackknowledge in such by the United States and Great Britain. (A Brit Lancaster bomber recently participated in the celebrations of the Queens anniversary.) The argument still rages even today that these war crimes were justified -- primarily because they are motivated at by legitimate war strategy. If we, however, never wish to do this again, or have this done to us by others, at any time, at any place, in any war in the future, we have to acknowledge that these war crimes were not justified and we ourselves must accept responsibility.
        http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

        Comment


        • John Kerry had as much to say about our war crimes in Vietnam in testimony to Congress in 1971:

          "Statement of Mr. John Kerry


          ...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one
          member of the group of 1,000 which is a small
          representation of a very much larger group of veterans
          in this country, and were it possible for all of them
          to sit at this table they would be here and have the
          same kind of testimony....



          WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION


          I would like to talk, representing all those veterans,
          and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an
          investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged
          and many very highly decorated veterans testified to
          war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated
          incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis
          with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
          command....


          They told the stories at times they had personally
          raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from
          portable telephones to human genitals and turned up
          the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly
          shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion
          reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for
          fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the
          countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal
          ravage of war, and the normal and very particular
          ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of
          this country.


          We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier
          Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on
          words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the
          Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted
          at Valley Forge because the going was rough.


          We who have come here to Washington have come here
          because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We
          could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we
          could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on
          in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this
          country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not
          reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are
          committing that threaten it, that we have to speak
          out.



          There is a lot more in his statement that is specific to that war.
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

          Comment


          • It was a horrid war.

            Awful to be a South Vietnamese. Awful to be a US serviceman.

            Impossible to think that all that suffering benefited anyone.

            Perhaps it has not left any terrible legacy of hate, though.

            Comment


            • Tingkai, many historians have made exactly that observation, concerning the fact the single biggest mistake the Hitler made was declaring war on the US. In fact, as Japan had initiated hostilities, under the Tripartite Pact neither Germany nor Italy had any obligation to go to war with the United States. Thankfully, most of Hitler's close advisors were syncophants or sociopaths, and he very seldom received advice contrary to his current mood. It was decidedly unhealthy to contradict Der Fuhrer.
              The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
              And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
              Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
              Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
                Stalin was directly responsible for the disasters of 1941 and 42.

                It was only when he let the Red Army professionals do their job that the Soviet Union started to win battles.

                Stalin was no military genius.
                I have a book where author proves that everything was exactly reverse.
                Can you translate it with babblefish or something?
                Some quotes for everyone who can read Russian.

                "Íà âòîðîé äåíü âîéíû, 23 èþíÿ 1941 ã., Ñîâåòñêàÿ âëàñòü – Âåðõîâíûé Ñîâåò – ó÷ðåäèë âûñøèé îðãàí ñòðàòåãè÷åñêîãî êîìàíäîâàíèÿ – Ñòàâêó Ãëàâíîãî Êîìàíäîâàíèÿ. Ïåðâîíà÷àëüíî â íåå âîøëè ìàðøàëû Âîðîøèëîâ è Áóäåííûé îò Íàðêîìàòà îáîðîíû, ãåíåðàë àðìèè Æóêîâ – îò Ãåíøòàáà, àäìèðàë Êóçíåöîâ – îò Âîåííî-ìîðñêîãî ôëîòà, Ñòàëèí è Ìîëîòîâ (íàðêîì èíîñòðàííûõ äåë) – îò ïðàâèòåëüñòâà ÑÑÑÐ. Âîçãëàâèë Ñòàâêó íàðêîì îáîðîíû ìàðøàë Òèìîøåíêî.129 Îí è áûë ïåðâûì Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèì Êðàñíîé Àðìèè â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå, íî áûë íåäîëãî. Íå ïðîøëî è íåäåëè, êàê âûÿñíèëîñü, ÷òî íàøè ìàðøàëû è ãåíåðàëû íå òîëüêî íå ñïîñîáíû êîìàíäîâàòü Êðàñíîé Àðìèåé, íî è íå ïðåäñòàâëÿþò, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò íà ôðîíòàõ.

                29 èþíÿ 1941 ã. Ñîâåòñêàÿ âëàñòü âäðóã óçíàëà, ÷òî âîéñêà ñîâåòñêîãî Çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà ñäàëè íåìöàì ñòîëèöó Áåëîðóññèè ãîðîä Ìèíñê. Óçíàëà íå îò ñâîåãî Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåãî Òèìîøåíêî è íå îò íà÷àëüíèêà Ãåíåðàëüíîãî øòàáà Æóêîâà, à èç ïåðåäà÷ åâðîïåéñêèõ ðàäèîñòàíöèé. À.È. Ìèêîÿí âñïîìèíàë, ÷òî ñîáðàâøèåñÿ ó Ñòàëèíà – îí, Ìîëîòîâ, Ìàëåíêîâ è Áåðèÿ, êîòîðûé è äîëîæèë, ÷òî Ìèíñê ó íåìöåâ, – çàáåñïîêîèëèñü. Ìèêîÿí äàëåå ïèøåò:

                "Ñòàëèí ïîçâîíèë â Íàðêîìàò îáîðîíû ìàðøàëó Òèìîøåíêî. Îäíàêî òîò íè÷åãî êîíêðåòíîãî î ïîëîæåíèè íà çàïàäíîì íàïðàâëåíèè ñêàçàòü íå ñìîã.

                Âñòðåâîæåííûé òàêèì õîäîì äåëà, Ñòàëèí ïðåäëîæèë âñåì íàì ïîåõàòü â Íàðêîìàò è íà ìåñòå ðàçîáðàòüñÿ ñ îáñòàíîâêîé. Â êàáèíåòå íàðêîìà áûëè Òèìîøåíêî, Æóêîâ è Âàòóòèí. Ñòàëèí äåðæàëñÿ ñïîêîéíî, ñïðàøèâàë, ãäå êîìàíäîâàíèå ôðîíòà, êàêàÿ èìååòñÿ ñ íèì ñâÿçü. Æóêîâ äîêëàäûâàë, ÷òî ñâÿçü ïîòåðÿíà è çà âåñü äåíü âîññòàíîâèòü åå íå óäàëîñü".

                Ïîÿñíþ, ÷òî â àðìèè çà ñâÿçü îòâå÷àþò íà÷àëüíèêè øòàáîâ, íà÷àëüíèêè âîéñê ñâÿçè ïîä÷èíÿëèñü íåïîñðåäñòâåííî èì, çà ñâÿçü â Êðàñíîé Àðìèè îòâå÷àë íà÷àëüíèê Ãåíøòàáà Æóêîâ, ïðè÷åì îòâåòñòâåííîñòü øëà ñâåðõó âíèç, ò.å. âûøåñòîÿùèå øòàáû îáÿçàíû áûëè óäåðæèâàòü ñâÿçü ñ íèæåñòîÿùèìè. Æóêîâ ñ ýòîé ñâîåé ýëåìåíòàðíîé çàäà÷åé ñïðàâèòüñÿ áûë íå ñïîñîáåí äàæå ÷åðåç íåäåëþ ïîñëå íà÷àëà âîéíû. Ìèêîÿí ïðîäîëæàåò:

                "È âñå æå îêîëî ïîëó÷àñà ïîãîâîðèëè äîâîëüíî ñïîêîéíî. Ïîòîì Ñòàëèí âçîðâàëñÿ: ÷òî çà Ãåíåðàëüíûé øòàá, ÷òî çà íà÷àëüíèê Ãåíøòàáà, êîòîðûé òàê ðàñòåðÿëñÿ, ÷òî íå èìååò ñâÿçè ñ âîéñêàìè, íèêîãî íå ïðåäñòàâëÿåò è íèêåì íå êîìàíäóåò. Ðàç íåò ñâÿçè, Ãåíøòàá áåññèëåí ðóêîâîäèòü. Æóêîâ, êîíå÷íî, íå ìåíüøå Ñòàëèíà ïåðåæèâàë çà ñîñòîÿíèå äåë, è òàêîé îêðèê Ñòàëèíà áûë äëÿ íåãî îñêîðáèòåëüíûì. Ýòîò ìóæåñòâåííûé ÷åëîâåê íå âûäåðæàë, ðàçðûäàëñÿ, êàê áàáà, è áûñòðî âûøåë â äðóãóþ êîìíàòó. Ìîëîòîâ ïîøåë çà íèì. Ìû âñå áûëè â óäðó÷åííîì ñîñòîÿíèè".94

                ×òî äåëàë òîãäàøíèé Âåðõîâíûé Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèé Òèìîøåíêî – Ìèêîÿí íå íàïèñàë, íî îá ýòîì ìîæíî äîãàäàòüñÿ ïî âîñïîìèíàíèÿì óïðàâëÿþùåãî äåëàìè Ñîâíàðêîìà ×àäàåâà, êîòîðûé ïåðåäàåò âîò òàêîé òåëåôîííûé ðàçãîâîð Ñòàëèíà ñ Òèìîøåíêî, ïðàâäà, óæå ïîñëå òîãî, êàê Òèìîøåíêî ñíÿëè ñ äîëæíîñòè Âåðõîâíîãî.

                "– ß âèæó, Âû íåäîâîëüíû ìíîé, – ñëûøàëñÿ ãóñòîé áàñ Òèìîøåíêî.

                – À ÿ âèæó, Âû ñëèøêîì ðàçäðàæåíû è òåðÿåòå âëàñòü íàä ñîáîé.

                – Ðàç ÿ ïëîõîé â Âàøèõ ãëàçàõ, ïðîøó îòñòàâêó. – Ñòàëèí îòñòàâèë îò óõà òðóáêó è ñêàçàë ïðî ñåáÿ:

                – Ýòîò ÷åðò îðåò âî âñþ ãðóäü, è åìó â ãîëîâó íå ïðèõîäèò, ÷òî îí áóêâàëüíî îãëóøèë ìåíÿ.

                – ×òî? Îòñòàâêó ïðîñèòå? Èìåéòå â âèäó, ó íàñ îòñòàâîê íå ïðîñÿò, à ìû èõ ñàìè äàåì...

                – Åñëè Âû íàõîäèòå, – äàéòå ñàìè.

                – Äàäèì, êîãäà íóæíî, à ñåé÷àñ ñîâåòóþ íå ïðîÿâëÿòü íåðâîçíîñòè – ýòî ïðåçðåííûé âèä ìàëîäóøèÿ".94

                Èòàê, äî âîéíû ó íàñ êàæäûé ìàðøàë è ãåíåðàë ìíèë ñåáÿ Ñóâîðîâûì è Íàïîëåîíîì, íî êàê òîëüêî íà÷àëàñü âîéíà, òî îêàçàëîñü, ÷òî íàðêîìó îáîðîíû ñðî÷íî çàõîòåëîñü â îòñòàâêó, à íà÷àëüíèê Ãåíøòàáà îò âîïðîñà î ïîëîæåíèè íà ôðîíòàõ âïàäàë â èñòåðèêó. ×òî îñòàâàëîñü äåëàòü Ñîâåòñêîé âëàñòè? Æäàòü, ïîêà ýòè ãåíåðàëû àðìèþ è ñòðàíó íåìöàì ñäàäóò, òàê è íå ïîíÿâ, ÷òî ïðîèçîøëî?

                 ðåçóëüòàòå 10 èþëÿ Âåðõîâíûé Ñîâåò Ñòàâêó Ãëàâíîãî Êîìàíäîâàíèÿ ðåîðãàíèçîâàë â Ñòàâêó Âåðõîâíîãî Êîìàíäîâàíèÿ (÷òîáû Òèìîøåíêî áûëî íå òàê îáèäíî) è ïðåäñåäàòåëåì åå íàçíà÷èë Ñòàëèíà.130 Íî ïîñêîëüêó Ñòàâêà áûëà êîëëåãèàëüíûì îðãàíîì, êîòîðîìó â ïîëíîì ñîñòàâå ïî÷òè íèêîãäà íå ïðèõîäèëîñü ñîáèðàòüñÿ, òî 8 àâãóñòà 1941 ã. äîëæíîñòü Ñòàëèíà áûëà èçìåíåíà â íàçâàíèè è îí ñòàë íàçûâàòüñÿ íå Ïðåäñåäàòåëåì Ñòàâêè, à Âåðõîâíûì Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèì.

                Òàêèì îáðàçîì, íå ïðåäïîëàãàÿ, íå ñîáèðàÿñü è íå ãîòîâÿñü, Ñòàëèí, íåîæèäàííî äëÿ ñåáÿ âûíóæäåí áûë ñòàòü åùå è âîåííûì âîæäåì ÑÑÑÐ. È, êñòàòè, êàê ïîñëå åãî ñìåðòè íè êëåâåòàëè íà Ñòàëèíà, íî íèêîìó è â ãîëîâó íå ïðèõîäèëî, ÷òî â òî âðåìÿ èç âñåõ èìåâøèõñÿ äåÿòåëåé ÑÑÑÐ êòî-ëèáî, êðîìå Ñòàëèíà, ñìîã áû çàíèìàòü ýòó äîëæíîñòü. "

                About Kiev:

                " ðåçóëüòàòå ãðóïïà íåìåöêèõ àðìèé "Öåíòð" ãëóáîêî âêëèíèëàñü ïî íàïðàâëåíèþ ê Ìîñêâå, è åå ïîëîæåíèå ñòàëî îïàñíûì: íåðàçãðîìëåííûå âîéñêà Âîðîøèëîâà è Áóäåííîãî ìîãëè óäàðèòü ñ ñåâåðà è ñ þãà ïî îñíîâàíèþ íåìåöêîãî êëèíà è îêðóæèòü âîéñêà, èäóùèå íà Ìîñêâó.131 Ãèòëåð ýòîé îïàñíîñòüþ ïðåíåáðå÷ü íå ñìîã, òåì áîëåå ïîíÿâ, ÷òî åãî àðìèÿ ñðàæàåòñÿ íå ñ ôðàíöóçàìè èëè ïîëÿêàìè, à ñ ñîëäàòàìè ñîâñåì èíîãî êà÷åñòâà...
                ...Ãèòëåð íå ñìîã íå ó÷åñòü èçìåíåíèÿ îáñòîÿòåëüñòâ è âûíóæäåí áûë èìïðîâèçèðîâàòü. Îí ïîñòàâèë êðåñò íà "Áàðáàðîññå" è èçìåíèë çàäà÷ó ãðóïïå "Öåíòð". Îí îñòàíîâèë åå äâèæåíèå ê Ìîñêâå è ïîâåðíóë âõîäÿùóþ â åå ñîñòàâ 2-þ òàíêîâóþ ãðóïïó Ãóäåðèàíà è 2-þ àðìèþ íà þã – â òûë ñîâåòñêîãî Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà ñ öåëüþ îêðóæèòü è óíè÷òîæèòü åãî âîéñêà. Òî åñòü ïåðåä íàñòóïëåíèåì íà Ìîñêâó Ãèòëåð ñíèìàë óãðîçó ñâîèì âîéñêàì ñ þãà. (À 3-ÿ òàíêîâàÿ ãðóïïà, âõîäèâøàÿ â ãðóïïó àðìèé "Öåíòð", áûëà íàïðàâëåíà íà ñåâåð äëÿ ñíÿòèÿ óãðîçû óäàðà îòòóäà).

                Îñîáåííî âåëèêà áûëà îïàñíîñòü îò ýòîãî ìàíåâðà Ãèòëåðà äëÿ Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà. Åãî âîéñêà äåðæàëè îáîðîíó äàëåêî íà çàïàäå, ïðè÷åì êðàéíèì çàïàäíûì ó÷àñòêîì áûë óêðåïëåííûé ðàéîí (ÓÐ34) íà ïðàâîì áåðåãó Äíåïðà ó Êèåâà. Çäåñü, êñòàòè, íàõîäèëàñü ñàìàÿ êðóïíàÿ è ñèëüíàÿ ãðóïïèðîâêà ñîâåòñêèõ âîéñê Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà.

                Ñòàëèí âèäåë ýòó îïàñíîñòü è ïðèíÿë ìåðû: áûë ñîçäàí Áðÿíñêèé ôðîíò â ñîñòàâå äâóõ àðìèé ïîä êîìàíäîâàíèåì ãåíåðàë-ëåéòåíàíòà Åðåìåíêî âîñòî÷íåå òîãî ìåñòà, îòêóäà íåìöû ìîãëè íàíåñòè óäàð â òûë Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà. Ïðåäïîëàãàëîñü, ÷òî óäàðîì ñ çàïàäà âîéñê Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà è ñ âîñòîêà – âîéñê Áðÿíñêîãî ôðîíòà, ïðîðûâ íåìöåâ íà þã áóäåò ñìÿò è ëèêâèäèðîâàí. Íî èç-çà îòñóòñòâèÿ ðàäèîñâÿçè íàøà ìíîãî÷èñëåííàÿ è íå óïðàâëÿåìàÿ â âîçäóõå àâèàöèÿ â òî âðåìÿ íå ïðåäñòàâëÿëà ñóùåñòâåííîé óãðîçû íåìåöêîé àâèàöèè, è ëþôòâàôôå Ãåðèíãà ïðàêòè÷åñêè âûáîìáèëî Áðÿíñêèé ôðîíò åùå íà ñòàíöèÿõ âûãðóçêè. Åðåìåíêî îñòàíîâèòü Ãóäåðèàíà íå ñìîã, è òîò, ïóñòü è ñ òðóäîì, ïðîðâàëñÿ (÷òî âïîñëåäñòâèè çàêîí÷èëîñü îêðóæåíèåì è ãèáåëüþ ÷àñòè âîéñê Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà).

                Ã.Ê. Æóêîâ â ñâîèõ ìåìóàðàõ "Âîñïîìèíàíèÿ è ðàçìûøëåíèÿ", êîòîðûå äëÿ òî÷íîñòè ñëåäîâàëî áû íàçâàòü "Ñêàçêè äåäóøêè Æîðû, ïîòåðÿâøåãî ñîâåñòü", ïðèâû÷íî âðåò, ÷òî, äåñêàòü, 29 èþëÿ 1941 ã. îí ïðåäëîæèë îòâåñòè âîéñêà Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà íà âîñòîê è îñòàâèòü Êèåâ, à Ñòàëèí, äåñêàòü, åãî çà ýòî ãåíèàëüíîå ïðåäëîæåíèå âûãíàë ñ äîëæíîñòè íà÷àëüíèêà Ãåíøòàáà.133 Æóêîâ, ïî îáûêíîâåíèþ, óêðàë ýòó èñòîðèþ ó äðóãîãî âîåíà÷àëüíèêà, ïîñêîëüêó ïðîèçîøëà ïîõîæàÿ èñòîðèÿ ñïóñòÿ ïîëòîðà ìåñÿöà ïîñëå çàÿâëåííîé Æóêîâûì äàòû.

                Íà÷àëîñü ýòî òðàãè÷åñêîå ñîáûòèå â íî÷ü íà 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ. Ìàðøàë Áàãðàìÿí, íà òîò ìîìåíò ãåíåðàë-ìàéîð è íà÷àëüíèê îïåðàòèâíîãî îòäåëà øòàáà Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà, âîññòàíîâèë åãî ïî êîïèÿì òåëåãðàìì è ñîáñòâåííûì âîñïîìèíàíèÿì. Øòàá Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà è åãî êîìàíäóþùèé ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê Ì.Ï. Êèðïîíîñ ê ýòîìó ìîìåíòó ïîíÿëè, ÷òî íè Þãî-çàïàäíûé ôðîíò íà òåõ ïîçèöèÿõ, íà êîòîðûõ îí íàõîäèëñÿ, íè Áðÿíñêèé ôðîíò íå îñòàíîâÿò íåìöåâ îò âûõîäà â òûë Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà.

                Êèðïîíîñ îáðàòèëñÿ ê íà÷àëüíèêó Ãåíåðàëüíîãî øòàáà ìàðøàëó Øàïîøíèêîâó ñ ïðåäëîæåíèåì îñòàâèòü Êèåâñêèé ÓÐ è Êèåâ è îòâåñòè âñå âîéñêà çà 250 êì íà âîñòîê îò Êèåâà íà ðóáåæ ðåêè Ïñåë. Íî ìàðøàë Øàïîøíèêîâ îò èìåíè Ñòàâêè êàòåãîðè÷åñêè çàïðåòèë ýòî äåëàòü: "Ñòàâêà Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäîâàíèÿ ñ÷èòàåò, ÷òî íåîáõîäèìî ïðîäîëæàòü äðàòüñÿ íà òåõ ïîçèöèÿõ, êîòîðûå çàíèìàþò ÷àñòè Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà, êàê ýòî ïðåäóñìîòðåíî íàøèìè óñòàâàìè" – îòâåòèë îí.

                Òîãäà Êèðïîíîñ îáðàòèëñÿ ê êîìàíäóþùåìó Þãî-çàïàäíûì íàïðàâëåíèåì, âêëþ÷àâøèì Þæíûé è Þãî-çàïàäíûé ôðîíòû, ìàðøàëó Áóäåííîìó. È òîò äàë òåëåãðàììó Ñòàëèíó: "Âîåííûé ñîâåò Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà ñ÷èòàåò, ÷òî â ñîçäàâøåéñÿ îáñòàíîâêå íåîáõîäèìî ðàçðåøèòü îáùèé îòõîä ôðîíòà íà òûëîâîé ðóáåæ…" (Äàëåå èäåò îöåíêà îáñòàíîâêè Áóäåííûì è òàêèå âûâîäû: "Ïðîìåäëåíèå ñ îòõîäîì Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà ìîæåò ïîâëå÷ü ê ïîòåðå âîéñê è îãðîìíîãî êîëè÷åñòâà ìàòåðèàëüíîé ÷àñòè.  êðàéíåì ñëó÷àå, åñëè âîïðîñ ñ îòõîäîì íå ìîæåò áûòü ïåðåñìîòðåí, ïðîøó ðàçðåøåíèÿ âûâåñòè õîòÿ áû âîéñêà è áîãàòóþ òåõíèêó èç Êèåâñêîãî ÓÐ, ýòè ñèëû è ñðåäñòâà, áåçóñëîâíî, ïîìîãóò Þãî-çàïàäíîìó ôðîíòó ïðîòèâîäåéñòâîâàòü îêðóæåíèþ".

                Ñòàëèí áûë â î÷åíü òðóäíîì ïîëîæåíèè. Êàê ãëàâà ñòðàíû îí äîëæåí áûë ñîãëàñîâàòü îñòàâëåíèå âðàãó ñòîëèöû óæå øåñòîé ñîþçíîé ðåñïóáëèêè è îãðîìíîãî êîëè÷åñòâà íàñåëåíèÿ. Ãåíøòàá ïðîòèâ îòâîäà âîéñê. ×òî äåëàòü? Ñòàëèí ïðèíèìàåò ñîáñòâåííîå ðåøåíèå, è ýòî ðåøåíèå âîåííîãî âîæäÿ – îí ñòàâèò Þãî-çàïàäíîìó ôðîíòó çàäà÷ó íà ñïàñåíèå âîéñê, íà ñïàñåíèå íå áåãñòâîì, à áîåì. Âå÷åðîì 11 ñåíòÿáðÿ îí ñâÿçûâàåòñÿ ïî òåëåãðàôó ñ Êèðïîíîñîì è, îöåíèâ îáñòàíîâêó, çàêàí÷èâàåò àíàëèç ñâîèì ðåøåíèåì:

                "Ïåðâîå. Íåìåäëåííî ïåðåãðóïïèðîâàòü ñèëû õîòÿ áû çà ñ÷åò Êèåâñêîãî óêðåïðàéîíà è äðóãèõ âîéñê è ïîâåñòè îò÷àÿííûå àòàêè íà êîíîòîïñêóþ ãðóïïó ïðîòèâíèêà35 âî âçàèìîäåéñòâèè ñ Åðåìåíêî, ñîñðåäîòî÷èâ â ýòîì ðàéîíå äåâÿòü äåñÿòûõ àâèàöèè. Åðåìåíêî óæå äàíû ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèå óêàçàíèÿ. Àâèàöèîííóþ æå ãðóïïó Ïåòðîâà ìû ñåãîäíÿ ñïåöèàëüíûì ïðèêàçîì ïåðåäèñëîöèðóåì íà Õàðüêîâ è ïîä÷èíèì Þãî-Çàïàäíîìó íàïðàâëåíèþ.

                Âòîðîå. Íåìåäëåííî îðãàíèçîâàòü îáîðîíèòåëüíûé ðóáåæ íà ðåêå Ïñåë èëè ãäå-ëèáî ïî ýòîé ëèíèè, âûñòàâèâ áîëüøóþ àðòèëëåðèéñêóþ ãðóïïó ôðîíòîì íà ñåâåð è íà çàïàä36 è îòâåäÿ 5-6 äèâèçèé íà ýòîò ðóáåæ.

                Òðåòüå. Ïî èñïîëíåíèè ýòèõ äâóõ ïóíêòîâ, è òîëüêî ïîñëå èñïîëíåíèÿ ýòèõ äâóõ ïóíêòîâ, ò.å. ïîñëå ñîçäàíèÿ êóëàêà ïðîòèâ êîíîòîïñêîé ãðóïïû è ïîñëå ñîçäàíèÿ îáîðîíèòåëüíîãî ðóáåæà íà ðåêå Ïñåë, ñëîâîì, ïîñëå âñåãî ýòîãî íà÷àòü ýâàêóàöèþ Êèåâà. Ïîäãîòîâèòü òùàòåëüíî âçðûâ ìîñòîâ. Íèêàêèõ ïëàâñðåäñòâ íà Äíåïðå íå îñòàâëÿòü, à ðàçðóøèòü èõ è ïîñëå ýâàêóàöèè Êèåâà çàêðåïèòüñÿ íà âîñòî÷íîì áåðåãó Äíåïðà, íå äàâàÿ ïðîòèâíèêó ïðîðâàòüñÿ íà âîñòî÷íûé áåðåã.

                Ïåðåñòàòü, íàêîíåö, çàíèìàòüñÿ èñêàíèåì ðóáåæåé äëÿ îòñòóïëåíèÿ, à èñêàòü ïóòè äëÿ ñîïðîòèâëåíèÿ".

                Íàäî ïîÿñíèòü, ÷åãî áîÿëñÿ Ñòàëèí. Êîãäà 30 èþíÿ 1941 ã. Ñòàâêà ðàçðåøèëà Þãî-çàïàäíîìó ôðîíòó îòâåñòè âîéñêà îò íîâîé ãðàíèöû ê óêðåïðàéîíàì íà ñòàðîé ãðàíèöå, òî ôðîíò ýòîò ìàíåâð ïðîèçâåñòè íå ñìîã. Îòâîä âñåõ âîéñê ñðàçó ïðèâåë ê òîìó, ÷òî íåìöû îïåðåäèëè êîëîííû íàøèõ îòñòóïàþùèõ âîéñê è åäâà íå âîðâàëèñü â Êèåâ. Çàêðåïèòüñÿ íà ÓÐàõ ñòàðîé ãðàíèöû íå óäàëîñü, ïðèøëîñü îòñòóïàòü äàëüøå – äî Äíåïðà.

                Ïîýòîìó Ñòàëèí, ïîääåðæàâ â öåëîì ïðåäëîæåíèå Áóäåííîãî, ðàñøèðèë åãî è ðàçáèë íà ýòàïû: ñíà÷àëà íóæíî áûëî âîéñêà ñ ïðàâîãî áåðåãà Äíåïðà (Çàïàäíîãî), ñ Êèåâñêîãî ÓÐà íåìåäëåííî ïåðåáðîñèòü íàâñòðå÷ó Ãóäåðèàíó è íå äàòü òîìó çàìêíóòü îêðóæåíèå; îäíîâðåìåííî îòâåñòè ÷àñòü âîéñê íà Ïñåë è íà÷àòü ãîòîâèòü îáîðîíèòåëüíûå ïîçèöèè, à çàòåì íà ýòè ïîçèöèè îòâîäèòü è âåñü ôðîíò. Ñàì ìàðøàë Áàãðàìÿí ýòî ðåøåíèå Ñòàëèíà îòêîììåíòèðîâàë òàê: "Ñâîåé æåëåçíîé ëîãèêîé Âåðõîâíûé Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèé ìîã îáåçîðóæèòü êîãî óãîäíî".

                Íî äàëüøå ñëó÷èëîñü íåâåðîÿòíîå, âåðíåå òî, ÷åãî íè Áàãðàìÿí, íè äðóãèå îñòàâøèåñÿ â æèâûõ ñâèäåòåëè îáúÿñíèòü íå ìîãëè, ñëó÷èëîñü òî, îò÷åãî "Òóïèêîâ, ñëóøàÿ Êèðïîíîñà, ñõâàòèëñÿ çà ãîëîâó". (Ãåíåðàë-ìàéîð Â.È. Òóïèêîâ – íà÷àëüíèê øòàáà Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà, ïîãèá ïðè âûõîäå èç îêðóæåíèÿ). Êèðïîíîñ è ÷ëåí Âîåííîãî ñîâåòà ôðîíòà Áóðìèñòðåíêî (òîæå ïîãèáëè ïðè âûõîäå èç îêðóæåíèÿ) îòòåëåãðàôèðîâàëè Ñòàëèíó: "Ó íàñ è ìûñëè îá îòâîäå âîéñê íå áûëî äî ïîëó÷åíèÿ ïðåäëîæåíèÿ äàòü ñîîáðàæåíèÿ îá îòâîäå âîéñê íà âîñòîê ñ óêàçàíèåì ðóáåæåé, à áûëà ëèøü ïðîñüáà â ñâÿçè ñ ðàñøèðèâøèìñÿ ôðîíòîì äî 800 ñ ëèøíèì êèëîìåòðîâ óñèëèòü íàø ôðîíò ðåçåðâàìè…"

                Ñòàëèí íå ïîíÿë. Îí ïåðåäàë Êèðïîíîñó òåêñò òåëåãðàììû, êîòîðóþ ïîëó÷èë îò Áóäåííîãî. Òåëåãðàôíûé àïïàðàò äîëãî ìîë÷àë, âèäèìî ðàñòåðÿííûé Ñòàëèí íå çíàë, ÷òî ðåøèòü, âåäü îêàçàëîñü, ÷òî è Ãåíøòàá è êîìàíäóþùèé Þãî-çàïàäíûé ôðîíòîì ïðîòèâ îòâîäà ôðîíòà ñ çàíèìàåìûõ ïîçèöèé. Çàòåì ïîñëåäîâàë ïðèêàç: "Êèåâà íå îñòàâëÿòü è ìîñòîâ íå âçðûâàòü áåç îñîáîãî ðàçðåøåíèÿ Ñòàâêè".

                Êèðïîíîñ è Áóðìèñòðåíêî, ìåæäó ïðî÷èì, äîâîëüíî ïîäëî "ïîäñòàâèëè" ìàðøàëà Áóäåííîãî. Îí â ãëàçàõ Ñòàâêè îêàçàëñÿ íå òîëüêî ïàíèêåðîì, íè ñ òîãî, íè ñ ñåãî íà÷àâøèì êðè÷àòü îá îòâîäå âîéñê, íî åùå è íåãîäÿåì, êîòîðûé ê ñâîåé ïàíèêå ïðèñîåäèíèë Êèðïîíîñà è Áóðìèñòðåíêî, êîòîðûå, "îêàçûâàåòñÿ", íè ñíîì, íè äóõîì íå ñîáèðàëèñü îòâîäèòü âîéñêà è îñòàâëÿòü Êèåâ. Íà ñëåäóþùèé äåíü Ñòàâêà ñíÿëà Áóäåííîãî ñ äîëæíîñòè è íàçíà÷èëà íà åãî ìåñòî Òèìîøåíêî.134 Íî ýòî ìåëî÷ü ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ òåì, ÷òî ïðîèçîøëî äàëüøå.

                ×åðåç 6 äíåé íåìöû çàìêíóëè îêðóæåíèå Þãî-çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà, è íàïðàñíî Òèìîøåíêî òðåáîâàë îò Êèðïîíîñà íåìåäëåííî íà÷àòü îòâîä âîéñê, Êèðïîíîñ æäàë ïèñüìåííîãî ïðèêàçà îò Ñòàâêè, êîòîðûé ïîïàë ê íåìó òîëüêî 19 ñåíòÿáðÿ. Ñâîèì äèêèì ðåøåíèåì Êèðïîíîñ ïîãóáèë ñîòíè òûñÿ÷ ñîâåòñêèõ ñîëäàò. Òàêîâà áûëà ñòîèìîñòü ïåðâîãî óðîêà, êîòîðûé äàëè Ñòàëèíó íà ïîñòó Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåãî åãî ìàðøàëû è ãåíåðàëû ñ èõ àâòîðèòåòîì "ïðîôåññèîíàëîâ

                Õàðüêîâ

                Ïîñëåäíèé ðàç, êîãäà Ñòàëèí ïðèñëóøàëñÿ ê "ïðîôåññèîíàëàì" â ñòðàòåãè÷åñêèõ âîïðîñàõ, áûë, ïî ìîåìó ìíåíèþ, ïëàí êàìïàíèè íà 1942 ã. Ýòà êàìïàíèÿ íà÷àëàñü ïîïûòêîé ñîâåòñêèõ Þãî-çàïàäíîãî è Þæíûõ ôðîíòîâ îêðóæèòü íåìöåâ ïîä Õàðüêîâîì".

                Whole book here:


                The author ask some interesting questions Saras.

                (On konechno prosto bogotvorit Stalina, no knigu etu, imho prochitat', ne bezinteresno. Sobytiya predstayut neskolko v inom svete, chem nam zdes' v techenii poslednih 15-20 let vdalblivali.)

                Comment


                • Xui znajet komu verit. Dokumentov dostovernykh netu, da i byt ne mozhet.
                  Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
                  Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
                  Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

                  Comment


                  • Da pochemu zhe ne mozhet? Est' ved arhivy sovetskoi armii, tam vse eti documenty est'. Naprimer prikaz Zhukova kak nachalnika gen. shatba o privedenii voisk v polnuyu boevuyu gotovnost' nakanune 22-go iunya. Pravda on v svoih memuarah ob etom prikaze rasskazat' "zabyl", tak zhe kak zabyl pro "Kiev" i mnogoe drugoe. Ya k memuaram voobshe otnoshus' ochen' ostorozhno, mali chto avtor mozhet tam nabrehat'. Nemeckie generaly vse valili na Hitler'a, ono i ponyatno ego ved' uzhe ne bylo i sledovatel'no oprovergnut' on ih ne mog. Nash vse valili na Stalina po toi zhe prichine.
                    Drugoe delo prikazi- eto uzhe istoricheskii material, dokument.
                    A tak, knizhka v principe poleznaya, poskol'ku daet pishyu dlya razmuslenii. Muhin tam deistvitel'no zadaet takie voprosy, vrode- "esli uzh Stalin byl takoi mudak, no kak vy rebyata obyasnite vot eto, vot eto, i vot eto" nad kotorimi prihoditsya zadumyvatsya.

                    Comment


                    • Nawet rozumiem
                      "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                      I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                      Middle East!

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                      • Oh, and German atrocities were largely systematic. Not all, but if You invite all professors of some university for a discussion called sth like "A culture and German Reich" and send them to a concentration camp, that's hardly not intentional.
                        "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                        I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                        Middle East!

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                        • Heresson, it is reported that when von Paulus took over the Sixth Army, he order a halt to the abuse of the Soviet people that his predecessor had not only authorized, but encouraged.

                          This tells me something about the source of attrocities on the Eastern Front.
                          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                          • I cannot find my book, but one of the more recent Ribbentrop biographies mentioned a Waffen SS general who left the Eastern front, if memory serves me also fed up with the atrocities. He was assigned to be the top military officer in Denmark, I cannot recall the position. He personally helped interefere with Gestapo and other attempts to deport Danish Jews, which when combined with Ribbentrop's turf battle over control of Denmark as an occupied country versus annexed territory of the reich, the proximity of Sweden, and the heroism of the Danes, produced on a percentage basis what I believe was the highest survival rate of Jews in all of Nazi occupied Europe, in fact I recall the Nazis killed less than 100 by wars end. As a footnote, the history mentioned the Waffen SS general was imprisoned for war crimes. Sad.
                            The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
                            And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
                            Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
                            Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

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                            • Originally posted by shawnmmcc
                              I cannot find my book, but one of the more recent Ribbentrop biographies mentioned a Waffen SS general who left the Eastern front, if memory serves me also fed up with the atrocities. He was assigned to be the top military officer in Denmark, I cannot recall the position. He personally helped interefere with Gestapo and other attempts to deport Danish Jews, which when combined with Ribbentrop's turf battle over control of Denmark as an occupied country versus annexed territory of the reich, the proximity of Sweden, and the heroism of the Danes, produced on a percentage basis what I believe was the highest survival rate of Jews in all of Nazi occupied Europe, in fact I recall the Nazis killed less than 100 by wars end. As a footnote, the history mentioned the Waffen SS general was imprisoned for war crimes. Sad.
                              Sad indeed. As they say no good deed goes unpunished.
                              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                              • There was one SS officer who was so disgusted with the gas chambers he joined a group of Jews and died there.

                                I forget his name - he was a colonel I think.
                                Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                                Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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