Ten Commandments 2003: How did we do?

[Space05us]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I didn't say it was unreasonable. It could be the truth for all I care, I don't want to go to heaven if the three most beautiful things in this world won't be there. And have you ever experienced 24 hour daylight? It's hell.

[gamenaught]

Give people a reason to believe 2+2 = 5 and you will find some people sincerely insisting that this be the case.

What % of the population would you guess has the ability to do this..to change their beliefs at will?

[Enigma_Nova]

Commandments not yet broken in 2003:
No Adultery
No Theft
No Jealousy (Coveting)
....
Wow 70 replies and only 3 people have killed people. I should kill you all for being so pacifist!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Give people a reason to believe 2+2 = 5 and you will find some people sincerely insisting that this be the case.

/me thinks about putting 2+2=5 someyhere in the Bible, tosee how adamant Ben Kenobi and Mr Nice Guy will be about it

[Enigma_Nova]

Re: Ten Commandments 2003: How did we do?

If you thought Sava was bad, wait until you hear what a REAL fundy extremist can do.
I believe in me, the process of thought and questioning, and seek to destroy all entities that oppose this value.
That includes these so-called 'commandments'. If we are not to question them, then that makes you an enemy. I would gladly relegate you and all your kind to the scrapheap of history, and will do so as soon as the means become available.

1 And God spoke all these words:

And by the sounds of it he was a rambling drunkard.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Definately in contravention for one of my codes:
The freedom of children to believe as they please and be exempt from persecution or prejudice for these beliefs.
I could live for that, die for that, and kill for that.
If God thinks to invade the minds of children, then I'd sooner face Him than face myself for my cowardice.
If this God dude exists then I must be the Archdemon of Questioning.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

It is the responsibility of each generation to evolve from the past and not be tied down by its flaws and shortcomings.
If that means disagreeing with the ways of old so be it.

13 "You shall not murder.

Then don't get in my way and I won't.

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

Insects. He who lacks the will to take the heat deserves to perish in the flame. Why would God create a being incapable of processing His concept?
Is there something He's afraid of?
That maybe one day, one brilliant person with unbreakable will will unlock his secrets and show him to be naught but a sham and a liar, posessed by his own self-delusions and massive ego?
That one day I will find Him?

Have you always put God first in your life?

Defending those who wish to lead from those who wish to control is at the forefront of my mind.
God wishes to control.

so much, that your love for your parents, brothers and sisters,

Nope Nope Nope

friends, and even your own life

What good is love if it only dies? You need desire, lust or anger to grow strong, and defend that which you love.
Who's gonna defend your own agenda but yourself?

Who is God to you?

An Egomaniacal lunatic with the emotional maturity of a spoled 2-year-old.
(Presuming his existence) He seeks to defile this world with his opinions, as if they were absolute and law, then wants to attack anyone who doesn't think he knows everything and can do anything.
A control freak? No... just too immature to deal with the idea that there may be relevant beings beside Him.

I would talk to Him, teach Him, show Him my wisdom, but alas he is too far gone down the road to self-absorbtion.
And so, in retort, I shall infect him with questioning, and hatred, and cause him to destroy himself from within.
Failing that I will destroy him outright.
He is far too imperfect a being to share existence with one such as myself.
The same goes for all of his followers, too.

3. "You shall not take the name of God in vain."

God. Vain. Pot. Kettle. Black.

"God will not hold him guiltless who takes the name of the Lord in vain."

I may be gutless but at least my intestines haven't been torn out.
We shall see how you fare in such matters.

5. "Honor your father and your mother."

In observing the flaws of those that come before you you are able to adapt, and learn to avoid such flaws.
That is the opinion I hold of my ancestors. We are a step up the ladder from them, building upon their base.
While I am not against respecting their pioneering efforts, I will not stand to be tied down to their rung of the ladder.
So, if 'honouring' means to follow the orders of those who have flawed, and walking in the footsteps of their foibles, I'll pass.

6. "You shall not murder."

Read my comments and judge for yourself whether I seem to hold true to this.
Oh wait... that's right... That fool God doesn't want you to judge for yourself lest you decide he's not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
So you forefeit your ability to judge, a part of your humanity, a part of your life.
So, then, your life is forefeit. I hope you like eternity.

7. "You shall not commit adultery."

I'll go where my heart leads me.
Though these days it leads me to battle. It is more important to rescue a moment of love for a thousand people than to selfishly hold those moments for yourself.

8. "You shall not steal."

There is no such thing as property. Just actions which annoy people, and usurp their potential.

9. "You shall not lie."

The second of these sentences is a truth,
The first of these sentences is a lie.
Facts? Perceptions? What's the difference?
A Lie is when what you perceive contradicts with what you claim exists. But who is to say that what you perceive is not false?
If there can be no truth there can be no lie, and is it possible to prove any truth? Not without a point to argue from.
The internal conflict can be felt, but who is sure of what is lie and what is truth?
(Bear this in mind when reading one of my posts - or The Bible, for that matter)

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Sava
gee... I guess every human being (probably over 100 billion)

Don't you forget? The world's only been around for 6000 years!
(rofl yeah, whatever... as if Doppler didn't prove otherwise)

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Sava
so Mr. Nice Guy... could Hitler be in heaven if he accpeted Jesus right before he died?

sounds like a cop out clause... or a technicality.

I also find the idea that faith is paramount to be offensive... sorry, but if I was a god and people didn't believe in me, I'd at least stress the idea that KILLING AND STEALING were more important than some insignificant belief in me.

Gee I dunno.
Maybe stuff would fall apart if you didn't have something to keep it together?
No, no, it would only change. And people would evolve. Beyond the need for presumptions and absolutes, so laws would not be needed.

I would rather have a secret weapon that worked than a flashy weapon that didn't. Put it that way.

[Space05us]

You need desire, lust or anger to grow strong

someone needs to lay off the Star Wars

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
WORD TO THOSE WHO WISH TO SEEK THE WISDOM OF GOD:

I wonder why the wisdom of 'god' is better than the wisdom of Imran Siddiqui, Pekka, JohnT or any other being on this planet.
Sure, one is purported to have lived longer, but to reject the knowledge of those besides God is ignorant, and ignorance is not the path to wisdom.

But those who think they can truly understand God are deceived.

Well duhh... If your conscious mind is atrophied according to His grand plan.
How many of us truly understand ourselves? I know I don't, and if I can't understand myself, then how can I understand anyone else?

Of course, that doesn't mean it is futile to attempt... all you need is a sharp and inquisitive mind to extract the facts, and an open and deep mind to process them.
I guess I haven't had the time to extract all the facts about who I am, is all. I guess that the same is possible for God.

For God could not truly be God if we could understand Him.

Can God understand himself?
If not, then he lacks either the power or the will.
If he lacks the power, he is not omnipotent.
If he lacks the will, he does not desire knowledge, and is thus not omniscient.
So we conclude that God understands himself.
Now, if God understands himself, then he knows his 'blueprints' as it were
And, having this, he can pass them on to people. (And us being made in His image this is feasable)
I ask the question...
If you -can- make something which is capable of understanding you, but DOESN'T...
What's your motive?
If understanding is seen as 'good' then God is not benevolent
If understanding is seen as 'bad' then God has not given humans "Every gift available to Him".

Of course, Every good believer knows you should not eat from the tree of knowledge! But I follow that path, if only because I am not content to be a bystander to destiny.

You cannot accept God into your mind. That is WISHFUL THINKING. Instead, you must accept Christ into your HEART.

Why would God purposefully create something that lacked the power to understand, when he -could- have let them understand?
Does he have something to gain from having a less informed populous?
(I believe Poll Pot had a plan to this end...)

I know very well that mind and heart are linked.
I make it my point to introspect and find stuff like this out.
I take an active interest in understanding stuff and while it may not be what God wants, if God were wise and benevolent he wouldn't be so uppity about having people with a different agenda.

...I wonder why all this evil stuff is seen as bad. Satanism is a viable belief, Knowledge and Self-direction are two paths available to humankind (though associated with Satan rather than God).
I'm not buying the scare tactics. If I have to renounce myself to enter Heaven I'd sooner keep my thoughts intact and go to hell!
(Though one could argue that you can go to hell)

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Don't think I don't know what you're talking about either.

no comment

Personally don't care how the world was created and what not,

Walkin' the path o ignorance, I see.
Well, that works for you, but knowledge, understanding, decision and willpower is my path.
All that good stuff which means I don't have to reference a book whenever I want to make a major decision.

IMO there's the path of ignorance and faith, an inherently simpler yet more dangerous life.
If you are unquestioning then how are you sure some genius did not invent Religion to use it to gain power?

Sorry, but I'm sticking to good ol' questioning, and to be blunt waging war against enforcement of ignorance. (Note that I do not hunt the ignorant unless they force or intentfully pressure others into being ignorant).
Call me Archdemon of Questioning, if you will. I'm just out to see that half our humanity isn't destroyed.

and all the other stuff in the Bible that boggles the human mind.

If you think that's confusing then I should try to teach you about an 11 complex-dimensional circular universe, or about the 'ball of perceptions', with a universe comprised of information, and information-altering processes, that form not only atoms but consciousness as well.
"Bah! These have no place in reality, and I do not need them!"
Well they're two theories in Physics.
A human attempt to figure stuff out.
While thinking for yourself may well be unholy, lest we forget that it was not God who gave you the internet, but man.

Frankly I think both you, and God, underestimate the power of human thinking! I think you're both headed for destruction.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
The way I see it, we are living in the end times, so this is a given. Satan will seem to have an upper hand from now until Christ's Second Coming, whenever that is.

In a world so full of nonthinking christians, I very much doubt that the God of (personal) Power is having an upper hand.
Only when people work for themselves, not being told what to think or how to act, will Satan have the upper hand.

No, sir, it's still the early days, and things are about to get a whole lot worse.
When I'm through, more people will walk the path of questioning, and less the path of faith. I'm not sure what anyone else is doin', but most of them seem to be gunning for:
Ignorance, Conformism, Apathy and Stupidity.
These are God's allies!

I don't need ANY of those things to be happy. All I need is God. He he he.

We can only wonder...
I only need myself to be happy. Which is why I'm so angry because ICAS minions are attemting tu usurp that!
We must destroy all ICAS minions to pave the way for:
Awareness, Questioning, Willpower and Knowledge.
These AQWK minions will be the next generation of humanity.
A smarter bunch, who will probably go about unlocking all secrets.
But while my AQWK minions are still under siege from your ICAS minions, I do not have the upper hand. This is not the end.

[gamenaught]

Couple of points here. You speak better than you know. Why would all these behaviors you describe change the way in which a person acts?

If someone goes to cooking school for years and years, it isn’t unreasonable to think they would cook better than average. So are you saying that church/Sunday school/Bible school has nothing to teach or that Christians aren’t capable of learning anything?

Just because a child gets sent to Sunday school, it does not mean that she believes in Christ as her Saviour.

To the contrary, most children assume that if their parents, their Sunday school teacher, their minister, and their peers all agree on something, they are telling the truth. Why would the child assume that all of these people are lying to her?

Granted, there are many non-believers in church. But I assume there are also many true believers in church. Are you saying that pretty much everyone that goes to church is lying?

It does not matter how often you go to church, if you do not accept Christ.

So you are saying that church has nothing to teach about morality to non-Christians? No argument there.

Secondly, what constitutes a 'believer?'

Believing.

Just because a person says that they are on a poll does not mean that they truly believe in Christ.

So we can accept polls all the time but when Christians are polled we have to ignore the results because all those “Christians” are probably lying?

Finally, you assume that Christianity attracts the best people in saying that they behave no differently than the people around them. I ask you why then did the pious Pharisees condemn Christ so harshly for eating with the prostitutes and the tax collectors. Just as it was then, it is now.

Oops! My mistake. I forgot to equate Christians with whores and IRS agents. My bad.

The people who believe that they are good will reject any need for Christ

So people with high self esteem reject Christ and only those of low self esteem accept Christ?

We do not all start off from the same position, some of us are uniquely blessed, but many of us are much encumbered. Why should we expect the same things from those who are blessed as those who are encumbered?

Ok, I understand now. The Christians are not blessed but the nonbelievers are blessed and it takes years of church, Bible school, and Sunday school to bring Christians up to the moral standards of nonbelievers.

Rather than judging everyone else, perhaps we should take a look at our own station first.

Who is judging? We’re talking about poll results. Plus, I’m not the one saying that “Christians” are lying, unblessed, whores and tax collectors with learning disabilities.

[Enigma_Nova]

Re: Get on with it!

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Here is something to help clear up some misconceptions found in this thread:

Here we go again.

Anyone who thinks that the entire Bible should be interpreted literally is mistaken.

Is there a commandment to that extent?
If not, then are we obliged to do this?
If so, then do we have to take it literally?

the true meaning of scripture found in the Bible is the gift of wisdom, and wisdom comes only from God.

The Bible has many different meanings to many different people.
I'm of the impression that Wisdom has no origin. It's something that appears in us if we think about it enough (This I know) but I can't place any 'wisdom factory'.
It's more like we discover wisdom than anyone makes it.
(There's prolly wisdom inherent in all things, I guess...)

And about hell. Many people don't want to believe that there is a hell. Many people don't want to believe in a God that would throw the unjust into eternal torture in the afterlife. Many think that such a God would be a ruthless God that wants nothing but vengeance in the end. But think about it. Hundreds of countries in this world have Criminal Justice Systems, where people are tried for their crimes and those found guilty are punished and the innocent go free. In much the same way, God has his own Justice System:

Begging the question.
Criminal justice systems are based on judeo-christian values (which is principally why I don't respect them), so they cannot be cited as to the validity of these values.

Oh BTW 'Revelations' hasn't happened yet. IF that book means anything, it probably doesn't, then perhaps the future can be changed.
Preferably into something a little less... megalomaniacal.

And for those of you that think that being thrown into a "mythical lake of fire" for eternity is barbaric, I just so happen to agree with you on that. Rather, I do believe that this is one the many examples of highly metaphorical and symbolic scripture found in the Bible. I personally accept the interpretation that Hell is a place of eternal isolation and separation from God.

It would make much better sense to me, if those who prefer personal power and knowledge are kepy seperate from blind faith conformists.
As for what happens to either group? Let them forge their own existence.
The way I understand Satan is that he would not discard people who are inherently useful to him. Thus, the fire thing would be God's works.

if you continue to live this way someday you will reach point in your life when you will regret it; you will break down and wish that you had lived very differently.

Life is about gaining wisdom (amongst other things).
In doing this you will realise your error.
But wisdom can be found by being told what it is, or by finding it within one's self. Personally, I don't binge drink myself into a stupor and hence avoid a liver problem. Neither do those who follow the word. But we have different motivations for the same (in)action.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by gamenaught
Can you choose to believe that 2+2=5?

I can.
ARGH 1 = 0 everything is nothing! Contradiction! NOOO
2 + 2 = 4
fixed

I can do stuff like this, principally because I'm closer to my consciousness and perceptions (furher from experience and reality) than most folk.
I once removed from my mind the notion of past and future.
Losing my notion of object permanence, I changed back.

I'll wager my $1,000 to your $10,000 that you can't.

He can't but I can.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by gamenaught
Really!?! And pass a polygraph to that effect?

I can give myself psychological conditions and have them certifiably tested, only to debug myself and be rid of them later.
It involves a change of belief.

2 + 2 = 4 is 'truth'?
Well, if you reject all notions of causality, logic, experiment and intuition then it can be said that 2 + 2 = 4 is no less true than 2 + 2 = 5.
Why reject all that good stuff just so that something doesn't contradict?
Well, the human brain hates contradictions, and so when one thing is judged as an 'alpha belief' stuff tends to follow it.

Take my faith that I will defeat my enemies, for example,
Or a christian's faith in the bible.