AP: Dean had his OWN secret energy group.

[JohnT]

That's it!

[creaky old-man voice]
Well, my mind ain't what it was back in ought-six, nosiree!
[/creaky old-man voice]

[GePap]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Ming
What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Ask the guys in Gitmo or Jose Padilla or any number of Muslims grabbed by Ashcroft.

Kind of letting your biases show aren't you

Better to let it all hang out than to hide them and pretend you're objective.

Exactly!

[GePap]

Ok, so lets see:

Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so.

Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret.

Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now?

Howard Dean has raised about 35% of what an emcumbent president has raised- and more than double his nearest competitor- yup, proven looser.

And as for "Bush hate" not being enough- "Clinton hate" got Bush elected.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so.

Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret.

You know as well as I do that 'who' wasn't the issue. 'WHAT' has always been the issue against Cheney's secret forums. 'What' was said there. The 'who' matters not, since it seems everyone has made up their mind about that.

[DinoDoc]

Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now?

Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

[Imran Siddiqui]

DD: Apparently the left can. Hatred for Bush makes them lose their sight .

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so.

Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret.

You know as well as I do that 'who' wasn't the issue. 'WHAT' has always been the issue against Cheney's secret forums. 'What' was said there. The 'who' matters not, since it seems everyone has made up their mind about that.

Its nice to know you know what I know better than I know...

If you know who, you can ask them what. if you do not know who, you can;t even try. And if you know who, you can better guess what was said (you won;t assume the Sierra club will be asking for greater loggins rights):
If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is..but they won;t even give that. But that is only a pattern- after all, the 9/11 commission had to go to court to pry anything out of this admin.

But again, deeper annalysis is never needed in US politics- soundbites are all we really need- after all, informed people are such a bore to speak to..better the opinionated ignorant! They are better on TV and radio!

HURRAH!

[DinoDoc]

Anyway as for the idiotic ranting about "proven loser" GePap was doing, it is his thin skinned response to attacks from fellow democrats that give rise to those accussations more than anything else. The shear ignorance of some people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Its nice to know you know what I know better than I know...

Well I'd hope you did know that!!

If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is

Riiiiiight... because they wouldn't hammer Cheney on the fact that his group had energy execs (which people know already).

As DD said:

Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now?

Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

Oh yes, very wise response! I mean, a whole sentence! Of course it makes clear you see the light!

GIVE ME ******* BREAK!

So blind? Whant to have a detailed policy discussion? Fine , lets go. Want to make more meaningless one sentence responses that are supposed to be thoughtfull? Count me out.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
Oh yes, very wise response! I mean, a whole sentence! Of course it makes clear you see the light!

1) Save the insults for someone that gives a damn.

2) Post something other that an irritating ****ing whine and you'll get a more substantive response.

Damn trolls.

[GePap]

Wow, first time ever called a troll... yup, cause I am so trollish all the time.

Does howard Dean have the right to criticize the WH for having a secret energy policy meeting? yes it does. Why?

1. The Dean group did have a little more openess in its process (actually held a public meeting, made names publi directly, not through people leaking)
2. For those that don't care about that: Scale matters- what a major does and what a governor does and what a president does are not the same all the time, even if they are all executives. There is a reason the press did not care much when Dean had this meeting in Vermont- the implications were far smalle,r specially given that state level government has smaller control over certain regulations, specially environmental. I work for local government- if the majoy of NYC were to hold a secret meeting about energy policy, sure there would be people complaining, but given that so much of what goes into an energy policy has nothing to do with things the major would have any control over, the consequences to the country are very very different. And scale does matter-the higher you go, the more speak and span you are supposed to be- greater power brings greater responsibility.
Is there some hypocrasy in this? yes, that is obvious. I hate hypocrasy, and certainly this looks bad for Dean- but given the issue of scop I outline above, it is not wrong for him to continue his criticism. What he needs to do is release the transcripts of that 1999 meetings, and forswear any such actions in the future. That is what he needs to do, not end his criticsim of an offense by the president.

[JohnT]

If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is..but they won;t even give that.

That's not at all true. The list is as follows:

Tony Alexander, President, 1st Energy Corp.

Howard Baker Jr.,Partner, Baker, Donelson, Bearman & Caldwell

Brian Bennett, Divisional Vice President & Public Affairs Executive, Southern California Edison

Denise Bode, Commissioner, Oklahoma Corp. Commission

Robert Card, President, Kaiser-Hill Co.

Red Cavaney, President & CEO, American Petroleum Inst.

Steve Chancellor, CEO, Black Beauty Coal Co.

Roy C. Coffee, Attorney, O'Connor & Hannan

Tom Cole, President, Cole, Hargrave, Snodgrass & Assoc.

Joe Colvin, President, Nuclear Energy Inst.

Leo P. Duffy, Duffy Group

Don Duncan, Manager, Government Affairs, Phillips Petroleum Co.

Gary Ellsworth, Vice President, Government Relations USEC, Inc.

Irl Engelhardt, Chairman & CEO, Peabody Group

Joe Farley, Counsel, Balch & Bingham

Tom Farrell, Executive Vice President, Dominion Resources, Inc.

Michael Flannigan, Kennecott/Borax

Alex Flint, Johnston & Assoc.

S. Robert Foley, President, Advanced Technology Group
ICF Kaiser

Gay Friedmann, Vice President, Legislative Affairs
Interstate Natural Gas Assn. of America

Ted Garrish, Univ. of California

Jack N. Gerard, President and CEO, National Mining Assn.

Jimmy Glotfelty, Manager, Government & Regulatory Calpine Corp.

James H. "Buck" Harless, Chairman, International Industries

John F. Hay, recently retired as vice president, government and international affairs, Westinghouse Electric Co.

J. Roger Hirl, President and CEO, Occidental Chemical Co.

Hunter L. Hunt, President, Hunt Power Corp.

Sidney J. Jansma, Jr., President and CEO, Wolverine Gas and Oil Co.

J. Bennett Johnston, Johnston & Assoc.

Jerry Jordan, Chairman, Independent Petroleum Assn. of America

Steve Kadner, Aquila Technology Group

Marc Katz, Senior Vice President , National Association of Convenience Stores

Rich Kinder, Chairman & CEO, Kinder Morgan Inc

Buddy Kleemeier, Executive Vice President & COO, Kaiser-Francis Oil Co.

Stephanie Kroger, Partner, Mayor, Day, Caldwell & Keeton

Tom Kuhn, President, Edison Electric Inst.

James Langdon, Jr., Aiken, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld

Richard L. Lawson, retired at the end of 2000 as president, National Mining Association.

Kenneth Lay, Chairman and CEO, Enron Corp.

Robert R. Loux, Executive Director, Nevada Agency for Nuclear Projects

William Martin, Principal, Washington Policy and Analysis

Thomas Merritt, Merritt Tool Co.

Albert Modiano, Vice President, U.S. Oil and Gas Association

W. Henson Moore, President & CEO, American Forest & Paper Association

Erle Nye, Chairman & CEO, TXU Corp.

David N. Parker, President and CEO, American Gas Assn.

Gregg Renkes, Renkes Group

John Sharp, Vice President and Counsel, Natural Gas Supply Assn.

C.J. Silas. retired chairman & CEO, Phillips Petroleum Corp.

**** Silverman, General Manager, Salt River Project

Matt Simmons, President, Simmons & Co. International

Linda Stuntz, Partner, Stuntz, Davis & Staffier

Diemer True, True Companies

John Tuck, Baker, Donelson, Bearman & Caldwell

Jack C. Vaughn, Jr., Vice President, Vaughn Petroleum, Inc.

Malcolm Verdict, Energy Efficiency Financing Director, Alliance to Save Energy

Troy Wade, Wade Assoc.

Stephen A. Wakefield, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Southern Co.

Judy Walsh, Texas Public Utilities Commission

Marshall Whitenton, Vice President, Environment and Regulation Policy, National Assn. of Manufacturers

Pat Wood, Texas Public Utilities Commission

John Wooten, Vice President, Peabody Group

Daniel Yergin, Cambridge Research Association

http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/aplayers2.asp

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It is rather shameful that you people can't even bother to research this matter before laying your accusations. However, I've come to expect this of the Left, and I'm glad that I'm here to help.

[JohnT]

And, as a personal opinion, I much prefer an energy council made up of people actually knowledgeable about the energy industry than one with a bunch of malcontents and whiners who know little about what they're yapping about, other than how to play their political constituencies. But that's just me I guess... other people would prefer a bunch of no-nothing enviro's and "low income advocates" forming energy policy.

[GePap]

Originally posted by JohnT
And, as a personal opinion, I much prefer an energy council made up of people actually knowledgeable about the energy industry than one with a bunch of malcontents and whiners who know little about what they're yapping about, other than how to play their political constituencies. But that's just me I guess... other people would prefer a bunch of no-nothing enviro's and "low income advocates" forming energy policy.

Thank you for the list- when was it made public?



You think environmentalist are 'know nothings"? Yup, those sicentist that work with them, where did they go to school? MIT? what a dump! Oh, and energy companies don;t have any constituencies! I mean, publicly traded corporations have only to answer to science and good policy! Ohter motives never enter thier calculations!

So JohnT makes one great post (evidence, links, things to back what he is saying) and then states his prejudices as if they were the truth (they must be!)

Fine, you prefer business making policy over public advocacy groups- fine. I disagree strongly with that, but fine.