France bans religious symbols in schools and hospitals.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I mean really, if that is the reason, then this law is like cutting off your arm because your thumb hurts.

I would be happy that we overestimate the threat of the extreme islamism, but I prefer that we consider it seriously, and not let it grow comfortably in our really benevolent and comfortable society. We overdo the job? I would think that you know better.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I would be happy that we overestimate the threat of the extreme islamism, but I prefer that we consider it seriously, and not let it grow comfortably in our really benevolent and comfortable society. We overdo the job? I would think that you know better.

Yes, you overdo it. Not ALL Muslims are terrorists. Jeez, I thought we had that discussion a while back.

[Dis]

and if they were terrorists, why would they bomb France?

[Drogue]

I voted somewhat agree. I think the seperate of state and religion is good, and should be enforced, but I think the banning of clothing is somewhat too far.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Idiocy, mindless idiocy, coupled with a fear of the unknown .

We know religion pretty well. Unlike you Brits, we didn't invent a non-papist religion to escape the clutches of the Catholic Church, and the memory of what it did to us is vivid. You may tell we fear religion, but we certainly not fear the unknown.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Are you certyain that expressions of atheisism are also banned? Someone should give that a test.

At school, yes, it is formally banned. Now, as per the other bans, it depends on the school director's decision to act upon the blatant atheist/christian/muslim/jew or not.
Actually, such situations have been rare, and even more rarely were they conflictual.

If the directors are told to be more strict in dealing with their religious, we can expect them to crack down on blatant atheists more often. Now, there are only a few blatant atheists in France, because there is much less need to show one's atheism than in a religious society such as the US.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drogue
I voted somewhat agree. I think the seperate of state and religion is good, and should be enforced, but I think the banning of clothing is somewhat too far.

I voted somewhat agree as well, because I think the outright ban will end up being contraproductive.

After putting some thought with what I learned last year on 'Poly, I've seen that the Americans had a very unhealthy debate on some issues like abortion or gun control, because the past decisions had been taken without compromise and have been enshrined since.
I think the debate on the role of religion in France is quite similar to the unhealthy American debates. It is still licking the wounds of the painful process of separation of Church and State undergone by the 3rd Republic.

I think we need more conciliation, and the line drawn in the law is too strict. It'll end up alienating more people than helping people. And if we want to integrate our Muslims, and to associate them with the Republic more efficiently, we should try not to radicalize them in a confrontative climate.

However, don't get me wrong. My toning down has only to do with the practical concern of integrating people better. I loathe the scarf and all it represents, and I can only hope for the day when the girls won't have to wear it anymore.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've seen that the Americans had a very unhealthy debate on some issues like abortion or gun control, because the past decisions had been taken without compromise and have been enshrined since.

That's a very insightful view at things. When you take things away from the democratic process, things get heated.

I loathe the scarf and all it represents, and I can only hope for the day when the girls won't have to wear it anymore.

Most Muslim women, when they wear the scarf, are not being repressed. This is part of the problem I think. They wear the scarf, while Muslim men wear skull caps.

[Saint Marcus]

while Muslim men wear skull caps.

::has yet to see a Muslim guy wear a skull cap in school::

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well they should. And believe it or not, many Muslim women want to wear their headscarfs.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Spiffor

We know religion pretty well. Unlike you Brits, we didn't invent a non-papist religion to escape the clutches of the Catholic Church, and the memory of what it did to us is vivid. You may tell we fear religion, but we certainly not fear the unknown.

You fear religion? Good Lord man. A quick study of French history shows that religion has had more to fear from the French than do the French have to fear from religion. During their revolution the French did things to Catholic clergy and laity that make anything ever done by Protestants during the Reformation look like toddlers at play! I find it very difficult that anyone could suppose that the strictness of the old Catholic religion could have possibly warranted what was done then. In Europe throughout the 19th and 20th centuries similar mass acts of exagerrated reprisal in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Hungary. In fact, the safest places for catholic clergy in those centuries seem to have been Protestant countries. That's not proof that the Catholic church deserved what they got. Instead I think it shows the propensity of the angry and violent to latch on to the defenseless as a surrogate target to abuse when the real source of their anguish is out of reach or when their anguish out lives the destrucion of the source. The Catholic Church was not responsible for inventing the system of repression which plagued Europe for a millenium, they were merely guilty of adapting to circumstances out of their control and then somewhat straying from their original mission.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
A quick study of French history shows that religion has had more to fear from the French than do the French have to fear from religion.

That must be a very quick study then. On 1000 years of history, France was fervently catholic for the 800 years prior to the revolution, and still highly impregnated by the Catholic Church for the following 100 years. Only since 1905 are we completely free of the grasp of the Catholic Church, and Pétain tried to reinstate its old role.
All in all, I don't think the French 'nature' has shown any stiff opposition to religion over the centuries.

During their revolution the French did things to Catholic clergy and laity that make anything ever done by Protestants during the Reformation look like toddlers at play!

Wrong. The Revolution was sure a rough time for the catholic clergy, but it wasn't characterized by massive slaughters similar to St Barthelemew's night in 1572 (where catholics massacred protestants), or like the times of the active cooperation between the King and the Inquisition. I'm sure you know the quote in your sig comes from when French Catholics massacred the Cathares to the very last (heck, I think you taught it to me).

The Revolution involved massive humiliation of priests, especially those who didn't pledge to the revolution, and massive capture of lands that were protected by the king's regime. That's not nice, but that's not comparable to the horrors the Church has guided us to do.

The Catholic Church was not responsible for inventing the system of repression which plagued Europe for a millenium, they were merely guilty of adapting to circumstances out of their control and then somewhat straying from their original mission.

The Catholic Church was not the all-evil behind the medieval oppression. Despite its mediocre missions under the Romans, the Catholic Church was the only structurated and intellectual organization in the whole dark ages, and as such it had a clear opportunity to take power.
However, the Church's power lied on belief, and on the idea that it had to regulate the daily life of the people. Politics, for the Catholic Church, was not only to give blessings to some King's policies, it had strongly to do with the common man.

The Church wanted to keep its monopoly on the people's minds during the 19th century. It was challenged by the 3rd Republic, and it has lost after a bitter fight. The idea that we took vengeance upon the Church is a misconception: save for some radical agitators, religion itself wasn't the enemy. Rather, the more mainstream "anticléricaux" opposed the determination of the Church's men to impose their views on our daily lives.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Despite its mediocre missions under the Romans, the Catholic Church was the only structurated and intellectual organization in the whole dark ages, and as such it had a clear opportunity to take power.

I think you may ignore that since the 14th Century, French clergy paid more attention to Paris than it did to Rome. After the Babylonian Captivity, the French clergy were very French. It's the government to blame, not the Church.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by paiktis22
How many muslims are there in France?

Apparantly, too many.

[Kirnwaffen]

I keep seeing our French posters refer to this decision as a defense of Liberty, Egality, Fraternity, and I'm having a very hard time understanding this. To me, it looks more like "**** liberty in favor of egality, and forget about fraternity".