France bans religious symbols in schools and hospitals.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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What when Schools are asked to "accomodate" their programs (notably in chemics and sports) so that the scarved girls don't have to get rid of the scarf? That's exactly the same.

No it isn't. You just make them take off the scarf for those activities.

Believe me or not (likely not), this question reached the point where we are only because some of the girls refused these reasonnable accomodations.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Then suspend them from school.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by yavoon


I would simply have the doctors do what the patient let them do and not more. but certainly if u were really rabid about it u could say if you are unwilling to allow the doctors to work then u must leave the hospital.

as for "recording it" u could simply have them sign some standard document of their refusal of help. its not really that difficult.

We just need one guy like you in every hospital.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Mazarin

But what does the scarf stand for? Many muslims today say, that the scarf is no longer required to be worn as it reflects outdated laws taken into the Koran. The use of the headscarf has been dramatically on the rise in the last century -either in countries with newly islamistic governments or among communities that supported extreme interpretations of the koran (including oppression of women/taking the law in one's hands/etc.)
this way, the headscarf has also become a political statement that clearly objects the values of our societies: taking these out of schools (haven't seen the hospital proposal either) seems like a not that bad idea to me. If an extreme ideology is mantled into religion -shall we accept their signs in schools?

yes because freedom includes the things u dont like.

or did they not teach u that in france?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Then suspend them from school.

Yeah right. And have a generation of uneducated ones. That would solve the problem

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

If they refused to be examined or refuse to leave their clothes, which in most cases make the exmination impossible, what the doctor must do ?

And how does this law stop that? What if a woman enters a hospital but refuses to take off her headscarf. This law changes nothing on that.

The law frees the doctors from their previous responsibility, which was far from clear before in the case of uncoperative patients..

[yavoon]

Originally posted by paiktis22


Yeah right. And have a generation of uneducated ones. That would solve the problem

why is it the gov'ts problem to solve? I still think it is up to the individual and family, and while I dont like seeing ppl miss school because of religion I certainly dont feel like stripping them of their beliefs so that they fit better into society.

[Mazarin]

Originally posted by yavoon


yes because freedom includes the things u dont like.

or did they not teach u that in france?

Schools are not a forum for all kind of ideoligic bullsh!t:
If someone came to school with racist/nazi/whatever stuff on his shirt, he should be sent home.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The law frees the doctors from their previous responsibility, which was far from clear before in the case of uncoperative patients..

Then why not pass a law saying doctors are not responsible in these cases?

I mean really, if that is the reason, then this law is like cutting off your arm because your thumb hurts.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by yavoon


why is it the gov'ts problem to solve? I still think it is up to the individual and family, and while I dont like seeing ppl miss school because of religion I certainly dont feel like stripping them of their beliefs so that they fit better into society.

I agree. However the state has both an obligation and a right to provide educaton to everyone up to 16 years old (I think) completely free and completely obligatory at least here. For example parents who don't send their kids to school (like many of the Gypsie families here unfortunately) face prison. If this is enforced however, it's another matter.
In any case if you have a generation without education you have many more problems but I agree that freedom of expression should be as high as education in values.

I can see the french problem/complications too.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Mazarin


Schools are not a forum for all kind of ideoligic bullsh!t:
If someone came to school with racist/nazi/whatever stuff on his shirt, he should be sent home.

holy tangential batman.

if he's being disruptive he should be sent home. otherwise freedoms are freedoms.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by paiktis22


I agree. However the state has both an obligation and a right to provide educaton to everyone up to 16 years old (I think) completely free and completely obligatory at least here. For example parents who don't send their kids to school (like many of the Gypsie families here unfortunately) face prison. If this is enforced however, it's another matter.
In any case if you have a generation without education you have many more problems but I agree that freedom of expression should be as high as education in values.

I can see the french problem/complications too.

I am more willing to compromise on freedoms when it comes to the treatment of children for sure. even though this is tangential I do see this as an area for compromise.

but I hardly see how banning clothing in school lends itself to this.

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes, a patient can refuse part of an examination. There is no need for some new law. The doctor simply has to record in the chart that he offered the exam and explained the consequences of not having the exam performed despite which the patient refused. If you're really testy you can have the patient sign or initial a statement.

I've dealt with scarfed muslim women, it wasn't a big problem. If they have a complaint regarding their ears or scalp they simply lift the scarf for awhile. There are plenty of women who are uncomfortable about having a man do their Gyn exam. I've never had a problem with referring those women to a female physician. It's a simple matter of common decency.

I wonder if these rules affect giving last unction?

Are you certyain that expressions of atheisism are also banned? Someone should give that a test.

[Mazarin]

Originally posted by yavoon


holy tangential batman.

if he's being disruptive he should be sent home. otherwise freedoms are freedoms.

then we should agree to disagree...one could consider extremist symbols as disruptive, of course

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by yavoon
but I hardly see how banning clothing in school lends itself to this.

Me too. I suppose it has become symbolism for something. I also find the french position strange. However I have heard how "militant" french muslims can be. But I tsill can't see the use of banning headscarves. It must have to do with liberte egalite fraternite - all equal under the state. But still doesn't justify it IMHO. But we don't know how it's like. Many muslims are in favor of the ban too. But it does seem strange. I wonder what happens to Greek schools I've never heard of problems of that kind even though I've seen some women in the street with the head scarve but not their daughters.