Are you illegal?

[MrBaggins]

and even then...

downloading an MP3 in Canada isn't illegal, thus... its justifiable, by your logic.

[Ming]

blah blah blah...

The creator/publisher of the software cares about the distribution of THEIR product. They own the rights to it.
Just because some countries don't pursue violators doesn't change the law. The two concepts are comparable...

Illegality is not morally relative... it's a black and white issue.
It's either illegal or legal. You can argue all you want on whether the Law itself is right... but it doesn't change the fact that if you break that law, by definition, you are performing an illegal act. Whether you care if or not is also a different issue... but it doesn't change the facts.

[MrBaggins]

and... what does that fact... mean?

its a circular arguement

You break the law, thus you've commited an illegal act.


Right... agreed... and?


What does that actually... mean? Does it mean anything, in a case where that illegality is not prosecuted?

This hypothetical person should feel bad? Should care? Is going to hell?

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
What does that actually... mean? Does it mean anything, in a case where that illegality is not prosecuted?

Yes... it means that it's still illegal
Again... just because it isn't being prosecuted doesn't make it legal. It just means you can break the law and not suffer a penality.

As I've said before, people can behave as they wish. But don't try to justify your acts by outlandish arguments trying to prove that what you do is actually legal. It isn't.

What it means to you is a personal morality issue... If you don't give a damn... fine. But that doesn't make it legal

[Spec]

In Canada, downloading music for personnal use is not illegal, as long as you dont share it with other people. So the person who you downloaded it from, the uploader, is illegal. Just like on TV. It is not illegal the record your favorite movie on TV for futur viewing, but it is illegal to make copies of it and sell it for an additional revenue.
On the other hand, it's a whole other matter with software. Downloading software is illegal. Why it is different from movies and music I dont know, but I know it is illegal. We even have inspectors that verify if companies are using real or copied Windows CDs for example.

Spec.

[MrBaggins]

I sense you've hit a limit in your arguement.

Illegal is illegal... OK.

but as far as I can tell.. you can't assign any meaning to that illegality.

Personal morality is relative, and thus can't be generalized.


Then we get into another relativity issue.. depent on what copyrighted work we are talking about, like mp3's. or time... in that there wasn't always a law, international or otherwise that applied to software copyright infringement. Such laws were amended after the inception of software creation, and the subsequent software piracy.

Since a society has rolled back a particular law regarding copyright infringement, who's to say that other aspects of copyright infringement law won't also be rolled back in other territories, at other times?

Societies morality changes over time... in various ways... like... slavery, say.

[Ming]

You seem to be the one that has reached the limit of your argument. You basic premise now seems to be that since it might change in the future, it isn't illegal now



An d yeah... I am sticking with same argument. If you break the law, you are performing an illegal act.

[-Jrabbit]

[ ]

The social contract of the society in which we live (yeah, that's another slippery one) calls for its members to agree to live by a mutually agreed set of rules. This creates spheres of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Some parts of those rules are given the force of law in certain geographic locations. Those laws are enforced by Governments. Governments are recognized by members of society in a defined geographic area, and given the power to enforce those laws which are passed by the legal (OK, more-or-less legal) representatives of the people.

The differences being discussed here (MrBaggins, most recent) are between Legal and Acceptable behaviors.

To use Ming's example, we all (generally) agree that murder is Unacceptable in our society. It is also Illegal in all known legal codes.

We have also -- as a society, not necessarily as individuals -- agreed to recognize the concept of Intellectual Property. Legal codes may or may not be drawn up to make them Illegal. But we all (as societies) have agreed that such property theft is wrong.

Those who violate this code -- whether "merely" moral or fully codified as Law -- are rebels against society.

One may argue whether or not intellectual property rights are truly recognized by a given society, but only in the case where it does not have the force of law. We have agreed to live together under the laws deemed necessary by our elected leaders.

The fact that those laws may be stupid or unenforceable does not remove them from the social contract.

Obviously, all you software thieves -- much like drug users, jaywalkers, and bestiality aficianados -- have chosen the primacy of the Individual.

Most of us do.

But not recognizing our social contracts while enjoying their benefits is morally bankrupt.

/

[MrFun]

Re: Are you illegal?

Originally posted by Spec
Downloading wise.

NOTE: I dont want links in this thread, how to's or where. All I want to know is if you download software illegaly instead of purchasing. And if so or if not, I would like to know why or why not.

Basicly, what you think about the whole thing.

Please people, try not to get this thread closed.

From the thread's title, it sounded like you were sniffing around for illegal immigrants.

[MrBaggins]

Well... an entire society (Canada) excluded personal copyright infringement (through downloading) from its laws, and made thus it socially acceptable.

This "social contract" you speak of, isn't universal.

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Well... an entire society (Canada) excluded personal copyright infringement (through downloading) from its laws, and made thus it socially acceptable.

This "social contract" you speak of, isn't universal.

It's illegal to download software in Canada without compensation

[MrFun]

So you can only download something if you have a real, big, nasty piece of sh*t waiting to come out??

[-Jrabbit]

Understood, MrBaggins. The contents of the social contract change. But the fact that one exists is a societal universal.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ming
You seem to be the one that has reached the limit of your argument. You basic premise now seems to be that since it might change in the future, it isn't illegal now



An d yeah... I am sticking with same argument. If you break the law, you are performing an illegal act.

Actually.. I just checked the status of that international copyright law you were talking about... and actually it doesn't apply to Malaysia...

Here is the list of signees, straight from the World International Property Organization (Geneva) itself...

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/documents/english/word/s-wct.doc

Personal software intellectual property infringement is thus legal* in Malaysia

*provided commercial use or profit isn't involved

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Actually.. I just checked the status of that international copyright law you were talking about... and actually it doesn't apply to Malaysia...

Here is the list of signees, straight from the World International Property Organization (Geneva) itself...

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/documents/english/word/s-wct.doc

Personal software intellectual property infringement is thus legal* in Malaysia

*provided commercial use or profit isn't involved

Finally... a valid argument. This one I can't argue.

However... you didn't know that when you making your earlier arguments.