Are you illegal?

[:) Smiley]

Not only do I try to get all the free software I can, I also use a lot of free hardware taken from discarded computers. And free printer paper... rebate CDs... uh yeah it's great to live in a society as wasteful as the U.S. of A.

[East Street Trader]

I don't.

No doubt that is partly influenced by the fact that I can afford to buy.

The reason I buy is a selfish one. I greatly enjoy good computer games, good films, good music etc. Such things will not be produced unless those involved expect to be able to sell what they make.

So I buy.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

The counter question is then, are software companies obliged to support any and all programs they have that are still under copyright?

Ain't that the truth. The old copyright laws simply don't do enough to protect the interests of consumers when it comes to software.

I take it you would disagree with a traditional civil disobedience campaign, Ming?

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ming
Yeah... justify it all you want... it's still theft. If you were to get caught, you would be punished. So play your silly word games if it makes you feel better

But it makes you a thief... subject to prosecution.

But not subject to prosecution of theft...

You'd be subject to prosecution as a copyright violator, or, recently... DMCA violator. Copyright law and the DMCA are worded in a radically different way than real property statutes, due to some of the reasons I've mentioned.

Everything, of course is relative...

Laws like those in Malaysia target infringing commercial use... and personal use is ignored. So your statement isn't universal.

I'd also say that, largely, a law without enforcement is merely advice. *chuckles*

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
But not subject to prosecution of theft...

But still illegal... It is still theft of intellectual property.

Laws like those in Malaysia target infringing commercial use... and personal use is ignored. So your statement isn't universal.

Copyright law is an international law... whether somebody decides to enforce it or not doesn't change the law.

I'd also say that, largely, a law without enforcement is merely advice. *chuckles*

So basically, you are claiming that as long as you can get away with something that is illegal, it's not really illegal...

Yeah.... It is still illegal

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
I don't.

No doubt that is partly influenced by the fact that I can afford to buy.

The reason I buy is a selfish one. I greatly enjoy good computer games, good films, good music etc. Such things will not be produced unless those involved expect to be able to sell what they make.

So I buy.

But if you don't test before you buy, how many lemons are you also supporting?

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ming


But still illegal... It is still theft of intellectual property.

Nope... theft is a real property concept. As already mentioned, something needs to be taken, for there to be theft. Theft isn't mentioned in either chapter 5 of Title 17 or Section 2319 of Title 18. The term is just "copyright infringement"; a definition unto itself.

Copyright law is an international law... whether somebody decides to enforce it or not doesn't change the law.

So basically, you are claiming that as long as you can get away with something that is illegal, it's not really illegal...

Yeah.... It is still illegal

Laws by their definition, require enforcement, if only intermittent enforcement. Personal use infringement just isn't prosecuted in Malaysia, at all... whether by an international body or otherwise... or a number of other territories. S.A., and bulgaria if I remember correctly.

[Agathon]

Downloading music is not even copyright infringement, at least in Canada.

Che said it isn't in the US either.

So Ming, since downloading your favourite Humperdinck album is not illegal in either the US or Canada, what's your complaint?

If you want to say it's immoral, then we can start asking whether the whole copyright system is moral, and there the fun starts.

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Laws by their definition, require enforcement, if only intermittent enforcement. Personal use infringement just isn't prosecuted in Malaysia, at all... whether by an international body or otherwise... or a number of other territories. S.A., and bulgaria if I remember correctly.

Again... just because they are not enforced doesn't change the fact that there are laws in place.

Again... your logic implys that anything you can get away with is OK... It doesn't change the fact that doing so is illegal.

[Agathon]

The copyright system was originally instituted to encourage people to create things that benefitted consumers. While it still does that it seems reasonable to ask whether or not there are some areas in which it does more harm than good, or should be modified.

That's a discussion worth having.

[General Ludd]

Downloading data is no more theft than eavesdroping on a conversation is.

[Combat Ingrid]

I think Ming has been a moderator too long

Now go dl some stuff, Ming. Free your mind!

[Ming]

Whether the law needs to be changed is a whole different story... However, as it currently stands, it is illegal... and that's a fact. You can try to justify it all you want, but it's still against the law

[-Jrabbit]

Do you Dl software illeagaly?

It's a well-known fact that software thieves can't spell.

The fact that the (intellectual) property is cloned rather than stolen outright (like hard goods) does not change the fact that ownership rights are violated through illegal D/Ls.

Software thieves have a wide variety of arguments to "justify" their actions, but the simple fact is that, by and large, they do it because they can get away with it. This is outlaw behavior, and no amount of sophistry can make it moral or ethical.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming
Whether the law needs to be changed is a whole different story... However, as it currently stands, it is illegal... and that's a fact. You can try to justify it all you want, but it's still against the law

But downloading music is legal (although uploading it is not).

Are you condoning what the record companies assure us is piracy, even though it is perfectly legal?