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  • Let's take an example of glorification that distorts the history of the Civil:

    Northern glorification: From the beginning, the Union set out to liberate blacks from slavery and through Reconstruction, sought to give them equal citizenship.

    This over simplification ignores the fact that racism was prevalent among Union soldiers.
    That the Northern states were hypocritical after the Civil War -- they were much more gun-ho about enfranchising blacks in the defeated Southern states, but were more reluctant to give Northern blacks, Chinese, and Amerindians the franchise.
    Or, that there were some Reconstruction state government office holders in Southern military districts and states who were either corrupt or incompetent.
    Or how about that white Northerners after Reconstruction embraced white supremacy to reconcile with white Southerners on the South's terms of Jim Crow?
    Of course, there are positive examples as well: black soldiers serving in the Union army; well-meaning, competent Northern office holders in the South during Reconstruction; and white Northerners who protested the "Lost Cause" reconciliation.


    Southern glorification: The Southerners who favored secession never seceded over the issue of slavery; it was over the issue of states' rights. The Ku Klux Klan during early Reconstruction was an organization that was necessary to protect white women and children. Reconstruction was an undemocratic era of bayonet rule.

    This oversimplification ignores the fact that the issue of slavery constantly emerged, and resurfaced throughout the history of antebellum America.
    It also ignores the atrocities that the Ku Klux Klan committed, and that it became a racist, terrorist organization for the Democratic party.
    It also ignores the facts on how Reconstruction failed -- it failed for TWO main reasons -- one, the corruption and/or incompetence of SOME of the Reconstruction office holders, and two, the wave of racial and political terrorism that violently suppressed Republican voting.

    Of course, there are some small truths: a small minority of blacks were faithful slaves who were weary of the Union army.
    There were some inccomptent, and/or corrupt Reconstruction office holders, as mentioned already, but not all were.
    Northern states were unfairly pushing for immediate racial equality in the South, but were hypocritical by stalling the same development in their own Northern states.



    These are examples of how Northern or Southern simplifications of this history still reveberates today, in that we are still struggling with race relations.
    A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PLATO


      Where have I glorified the South's methods? Of course I will definately glorify the underlying motive...Strict interpretation of the United States Constitution. The centralizing of the Federal Government and the stripping of the States power was never intended by the founding fathers. Your education is sooo based on the "victors write the history books" mentality. I am old enough to remember stories being told by aunts and uncles whose parents lived through it. They were there...no theories...no revisionist Yankee histories...They were there.
      I'm not going to unquestionably take first-hand accounts from those who lived through it.
      Part of doing scholarly historical studies, is trying to objectively determine what part of first-hand accounts are based on fact, and what part of first-hand accounts is based on the ideologica/political agenda for those particular people at that time period.

      I'm not going to take the extreme ideological rhetoric of abolitionists as complete, unquestionable facts -- just as I'm not going to take the extreme ideological rhetoric of white Southern Confederates as complete, unquestionable facts.
      A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MrFun


        Who died and made you Queen of Obnoxiousness.
        Shut up, gay-spock.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TCO


          Shut up, gay-spock.
          Um -- that is Empress Gay Spock.




          And I see that no one is interested in this discussion anymore, so does this mean we have a cease-fire?
          A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PLATO
            Another northern misconception. So many...so little time...
            Its all based on what figures one uses:


            Top 10 States per PCI in 2001:
            1. Connecticutt (DC comes here) 2 Massachussets 3. New Jersey 4 New York 5 Maryland (the south's sole addition) 6 New hampshire 7 Colorado 8 Minnesota 9 Illinois 10 California.

            Bottom 10 in 2001:
            41. South Carolina 42. Idaho 43. Alabama 44. Lousiana 45. Montana 46. Utah 467 New mexico 48. West virginia 49. Arkansas 50. Mississippi

            Now, perhaps time for you to look at those figures you gave, cause there must be something very wrong with them.

            In addition, all those in the bottom 10 have PCI $5000 or more less than the national average, white the top ten varied greatly, with Cali being only $1000 above national average, NY $5000 above, and Conneticutt $10k above national average.
            If you don't like reality, change it! me
            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GePap


              Its all based on what figures one uses:


              Top 10 States per PCI in 2001:
              1. Connecticutt (DC comes here) 2 Massachussets 3. New Jersey 4 New York 5 Maryland (the south's sole addition) 6 New hampshire 7 Colorado 8 Minnesota 9 Illinois 10 California.

              Bottom 10 in 2001:
              41. South Carolina 42. Idaho 43. Alabama 44. Lousiana 45. Montana 46. Utah 467 New mexico 48. West virginia 49. Arkansas 50. Mississippi

              Now, perhaps time for you to look at those figures you gave, cause there must be something very wrong with them.

              In addition, all those in the bottom 10 have PCI $5000 or more less than the national average, white the top ten varied greatly, with Cali being only $1000 above national average, NY $5000 above, and Conneticutt $10k above national average.
              I did think that they were a bit unusual, but mine are from the census bureau. Should have posted the link. I will see if I can find it.

              However a link between GDP and PCI does not necisarrily follow. Production and consumption can occur in two different locales. Maybe we just make the stuff and you guys use it. So where would you be without us then?
              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

              Comment


              • I am sorry, but how could the south be leading in GPD while at the same time on average having per capita incomes 75% of national average? Thats imply does not compute- we need elfreako or some competent economist to come and talk about it.

                People get paid for producing, not consuming. If people in NY are making a lot more, either they are making more or what they make is worth more.
                If you don't like reality, change it! me
                "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                Comment


                • And on balance of Federal Taxes for fiscal 2001:



                  States that got less than they paid and how much less:
                  California: 58 billion
                  New York: 39.5 billion
                  Illinois: 25 Billion
                  New Jersey: 23 billion
                  Texas: 13 billion (only state to vote Bush)
                  Michigan: 11.7 billion
                  Massachussets: 11.5 billion
                  Connecticutt: 11 billion
                  Washington: 9.4 billion
                  Wisconsin: 5.6 billion

                  States that got more then they paid, and how much more:
                  Virginia: 21.9 billion
                  Alabama: 10.7 billion
                  Maryland: 9 billion
                  Mississippi: 8.9 billion
                  New Mexico: 8.6 billion
                  Oklahoma: 7 billion
                  Kentucky: 6.7 billion
                  Tennessee: 5.7 billion
                  South Carolina: 5.2 billion
                  West Virginia: 5.2 billion

                  Do we see a pattern? So what I said happens to be 100% correct.
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • So if the states in the Northeast and Cali did not have to export money due to the Federal system, none of them would have had budget deficits statewide these last few years. In fact, they could have fully funded their budgets and ghiven tax cuts to citizens.
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • Interesting. I was always more inclined to blame poor fiscal management.
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                        Interesting. I was always more inclined to blame poor fiscal management.
                        Well, we could affrod our fiscal missmanagement if we did not need to export so much money.

                        As for fiscal missmanagement- the south is getting billions a year and they are still so much poorer-where is that moeny going?
                        If you don't like reality, change it! me
                        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GePap
                          As for fiscal missmanagement-...
                          I'm not the one whining about other regions stealing our money. Pick another target for that. Though I did like the retort about affording your mismanagement if only...
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • I would be glad for the south to break off- as I said earlier, you get better returns on international investments than you do simply sending of money in the form of federal taxes.

                            I just want this to be made clear to anyone: No one here can ever say "well, my tax dolars are paying for them NYC welfare mothers", or "my tax dollars are paying for all those liberal programs" without me going BS on them becuase the liberal states for the most part also happen to be the rich states.
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • Then y'all yankee liberals wouldn't mind devolving all those programs to the state level where they belong and limiting the Federal government to it's proper constitutional role, now would y'all?

                              "We are a band of brothers, native to the soil..."
                              When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                              Comment


                              • Thats the thing: the people complaining most about the Feds are the ones benefitting the most: what kind of weirdos are you? We libs are willing to pay, and the southern boys take the money, but then complain about their taxes?

                                If you don't like reality, change it! me
                                "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                                "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                                "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                                Comment

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