Rugby World Cup 2003 - Finals!

[NeoStar]

Excuse me, Tamerlin

Just in case you didn't notice You know how fast this thread is. Sorry this question is not about rugby-

That new mini series on Napoleon has got me back into that period with a vengence - I'm curious, how (as far as you know) do the French see him today? Is he treated in popular opinion and French history with reverence and respect for his laws/public works and greatness or like any dictator who led many soldiers to their death?

I know he has quite a tomb at Les Invalids.











(and no, I'm not trying to fill the void of losing the world cup )

[finbar]

Tamerlin probably wouldn't have minded having Napoleon in the centres against England.

Mmmmm. No. On second thoughts, they already had their full complement of tactical boneheads.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by NeoStar

That new mini series on Napoleon has got me back into that period with a vengence - I'm curious, how (as far as you know) do the French see him today? Is he treated in popular opinion and French history with reverence and respect for his laws/public works and greatness or like any dictator who led many soldiers to their death?

That's the one on SBS a little after the soccer? Missed it last night, sadly, but I've been watching it for the past few weeks.
I've garnered the impression that it seems to be going out of its way to emphasize that his achievements were more by good fortune than by good management - not something I agree with altogether - but its still interesting viewing.

So the obfuscation that makes a mockery of the international judicial system is alive and well in the English system too.

Actually I like a little 'room for interpretation' myself. IMHO there can be a world of difference between an intentional and a non-intentional foul.
More to the point I think you want to allow leeway for the seriousness of the victimised players injuries too.
An accidental trip leading to a broken ankle might only warrant a couple of matches on the bench whereas tripping with intent should probably keep the guilty party out for as long as the injury took to heal.

Besides which, a seven match suspension is still pretty harsh reduced from ten. Look at all of those AFL players throwing forearms, punches and such, who might miss a couple of matches for something particularly vicious.
If they get lucky they're only out for a week.

[Havak]

Thanks for pointing out the result Finbar.

The only up side of it is that it finally shut up the morons on the terrace who had been saying for months "it will be all right when the boys get back".

Playing seven guys who were forwards did nothing to help the huge deficiences now evident behind the pack. To the extent that Austin at fullback was the most threatening back by a long way.

Gibson after a few solid games early on seems on pension taking autopilot - young Smith is making huge tackles but never getting any ball in an offensive move. Holtby lacks experience on the wing (how we missed the new rocket boy Baxter there) and Freddie Tuilagi has been sussed by the entire league as a one dimensional banger - and was again lucky not to be carded for not using arms in the tackle.

If you can't beat 14 men when you have nearly 60 minutes to have a go then alarm bells should be ringing.

Dean Richards take on it - the RWC lads returning "disrupted training and affected our preperation".

That one left me speechless Finbar - maybe Denial is just a river in Africa after all?

By the way Woods stamped deliberately on a players head - shall we see how the RFU treat their favourites Bath on this?

Oh yes - and some very distateful Racism from a drunken Welsh bath fan (!) on the terrace as Pez the Italian fly half missed a penalty for us with the last kick (it would have been a travesty had we won!). There was nearly violence over it as he was 'asked' to shut up and whilst I am loathe to see this happening the kind of things he was saying had no place on a family terrace either.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by ravagon
That's the one on SBS a little after the soccer? Missed it last night, sadly, but I've been watching it for the past few weeks.
I've garnered the impression that it seems to be going out of its way to emphasize that his achievements were more by good fortune than by good management - not something I agree with altogether - but its still interesting viewing.

That's the one. The one you missed was where he basically lost, Paris fell and he was sent to Elba Island. Waterloo and his exile is the last one.

Yeah, things do seem a bit random in places, but I'm sure that's more because of the time restraint and things just popping out of nowhere makes better (and quicker) viewing than planning. It's funny really, despite being 8 episodes it's so vague - big for a historical mini series but for Napoleon it's way too short. From both watching that and a book I'm reading (which is purposely trying to be even handed) he really isn't the warmonger he's made up to be, the other European powers were pretty bad.

What really makes me like it is the quality of the acting - I'm not used to good actors in these kinds of history shows - Christian Clavier, Isabella Rosselina, Depardieu, Malkovich - what the hell?

[Havak]

I've denounced him here before, have I? Boorish twayt.

You have indeed – and you seem to have him summed up nicely.

He had his fun. I'm amazed anyone took it seriously

Words in print again – it has no sense of tone or inflection does it? He needed smilies

Oldie but a goodie. A bit like the line about the singer - insert any appalling country singer - who put the (you know what) back into country music.

The unfortunate thing is that I recall absolutely nothing about the show apart from Alexi's MCing, which was, um, colourful.

Rik will never grow up – even a near death accident on his motor bike did not help him mature visibly.

Back then they were real young rebels in the Comic strip – most are now thoroughly establishment – Edmondson, Saunders and French are all running TV production outfits – Rik Mayall made adverts for Nintendo for gawds sake.

Richardson on the other hand is as rebelious as ever - and therefore hardly seen on TV now.

There’s always going to be trouble with Poms who get hold of Photoshop guys. Leave the high ground to me.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by Havak
Rogers was absolutely the right choice for full back. His boot was key to keeping Australia in the game. Roff, when he came on, was pretty anonymous I thought. So another good call by me saying he should have started.

He yet remains one of my favourite players. He could possibly play for the next one but I'm sure you guys would agree that it's not likely.

Originally posted by Havak


The Six nations trophy went into it in March – the Cook Cup returned to it in June after a holiday in Oz with us. The hinges have never worked so hard!!

Of course, of course! (I almost edited that post) But I was talking generally about England, sometimes it just seems you guys have nothing but bad luck. England really needed that - and obviously not only rugby followers were rejoicing, though fickle fans they be

The other thing, which has little consequence to people like us who live the game, Jonny has proven fullstop his team's usual style of game (70 out, 60 out, 50 out....kick it!!!) is hardly boring. What do you think fellas, will we see a trend as other teams change accordingly to bring about the;

Golden Age of the Drop Goal!!

Or am I talking bilge as usual?

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Actually I like a little 'room for interpretation' myself. IMHO there can be a world of difference between an intentional and a non-intentional foul.

There is, by definition. An intentional foul will be penalised, and, if it's deemed foul play, the player can be carded, charged, et al. An unintentional foul will be penalised, and that's it.

More to the point I think you want to allow leeway for the seriousness of the victimised players injuries too.

I'm not sure that the ramifications should enter into it.

An accidental trip leading to a broken ankle might only warrant a couple of matches on the bench whereas tripping with intent should probably keep the guilty party out for as long as the injury took to heal.

But a player isn't going to be charged for an accidental trip. A penalty would be given and that's that, regardless of the ramifications. A deliberate trip, OTOH, like the French winger perpetrated -v- England, would be a different matter. And was.

Besides which, a seven match suspension is still pretty harsh reduced from ten. Look at all of those AFL players throwing forearms, punches and such, who might miss a couple of matches for something particularly vicious.
If they get lucky they're only out for a week.

Yes, a sentence reduction from ten to seven weeks remains a strong penalty. That was my point. It seems to contradict the hoo-haa spoken about deliberate and reckless.

The AFL tribunal is famous for its inconsistency.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Thanks for pointing out the result Finbar.

I just happened to stumble across the result. And the odd detail about the oppo losing a player to a red card. And the means to increase the size of the text in a post. And the means to post text in bold. Call it a fortuitous collection of discoveries.

To the extent that Austin at fullback was the most threatening back by a long way.

Big alarm bells. Rotheram must be giggling up their sleeves.

Dean Richards take on it - the RWC lads returning "disrupted training and affected our preperation".

That's up there with Steve Larkham's excuse for losing to Ireland last November - they'd changed some of the backline calls and weren't up to speed on them.

That one left me speechless Finbar - maybe Denial is just a river in Africa after all?

The thing that puzzles me is whether or not the utterers of these lame excuses actually believe them.

By the way Woods stamped deliberately on a players head - shall we see how the RFU treat their favourites Bath on this?

Spoken like a true supporter of a once mighty team now fallen on hard times.

drunken Welsh bath fan

What a fascination juxtaposition of words.

[finbar]

Originally posted by NeoStar
What really makes me like it is the quality of the acting - I'm not used to good actors in these kinds of history shows - Christian Clavier, Isabella Rosselina, Depardieu, Malkovich - what the hell?

It's called having a big budget.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

Back then they were real young rebels in the Comic strip – most are now thoroughly establishment – Edmondson, Saunders and French are all running TV production outfits – Rik Mayall made adverts for Nintendo for gawds sake.

And, just to complete the circle, you're working in I.T.

Richardson on the other hand is as rebelious as ever - and therefore hardly seen on TV now.

Yes, he directed them in a couple of short films for TV a few - gee, maybe even ten - years ago. I've got a couple of very good books tracing the development of English broadcast and performance humour from the mid-60s onwards, harking back to Cleese and Chapman (pre-Python) and Tim Brook Taylor doing "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again" on radio, all the way through the Comic Strip people and up, from memory, to people like Eddie Izzard. Fascinating stuff.

[SpencerH]

Despite having every digital TV channel available here through cable I only managed to see the last 5 min of regular time and the OT of the final. ****

England didnt seem as dominant as I would have expected given their no1 ranking.

[Havak]

But I was talking generally about England, sometimes it just seems you guys have nothing but bad luck. England really needed that - and obviously not only rugby followers were rejoicing, though fickle fans they be

Most will crawl back into the woodwork in a few months – but if a few get and stay involved with the game then the RWC win will have worked wonders.

Are we unlucky – I can’t answer for other sports but in rugby our bad luck has normally been self created.

Call it a fortuitous collection of discoveries.

Let’s just call it ‘keeping Havak grounded’?

Big alarm bells. Rotheram must be giggling up their sleeves.

I’ll start to really worry when they score a point.

The thing that puzzles me is whether or not the utterers of these lame excuses actually believe them.

I think he does unfortunately. I almost see what he was trying to say – he wanted the RWC players back in Tigers patterns of play before Stade Francais this weekend – but it was wrong to say the inclusion of them disrupted us – our backs would have been woeful regardless. It’s interesting you know but this slow decline in our backs has been traced back to Pat Howard going – we just clung onto league and European crown in Kafers first year then things got really bad in his second – and now under this club guy Andy Key the backs have become non-entities.

I don’t know if Pat made the difference (he inherited the backs as a very good outfit from Joel Stransky whom I still rate the best fly half we have had in the last decade) but it is a fact with him gone they have become very poor indeed.

Deano has been a hero but he is now a man under huge pressure. If we suffer a huge reverse to the French on Saturday then fail to impress against the Welsh and Italian outfits I think the pressure for him to resign will become almost irresistible.

Spoken like a true supporter of a once mighty team now fallen on hard times.

It’s Bath. Were we still sweeping all before us I would just as cynical on this one.

What a fascination juxtaposition of words.

Welsh Bath Drunken Fan?

And, just to complete the circle, you're working in I.T.

Indeed but at least my principles are consistent with those of my younger self.

Pre-Python to Izzard is some scope. So tell me – did ‘alternative’ comedians really change broadcast humour significantly? Most have been in formulaic sitcoms in the 90s.

England didnt seem as dominant as I would have expected given their no1 ranking.

To paraphrase dear old Bob Dwyer from his Tigers days we were dominant in every phase of the game except the scoreboard.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
Speaking of which, I notice Rik Mayall has a new TV series in which his character is called Cnut.

Is it any good? What's it called?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Let’s just call it ‘keeping Havak grounded’?

I prefer to think of it as kicking him when he's down. The WRC, of course, being meaningless alongside Leicester's travails.

Deano has been a hero but he is now a man under huge pressure. If we suffer a huge reverse to the French on Saturday then fail to impress against the Welsh and Italian outfits I think the pressure for him to resign will become almost irresistible.

I hereby offer you Graham Henry's services. Anything to keep him out of the ABs' chair!

Welsh Bath Drunken Fan?

Yes, the first three words constitute outrageous tautology, I'd've thought.

Pre-Python to Izzard is some scope. So tell me – did ‘alternative’ comedians really change broadcast humour significantly? Most have been in formulaic sitcoms in the 90s.

That's the point. The mass medium that is television, for example, doesn't encourage the alternative. The numbers are in safety. Even though it's pre-"alternative", Python was revolutionary - for television, with Milligan and the Goons having truly broken the ground on radio. Of the "alternatives", "The Young Ones" is probably the only successful transition. And, unfortunately, Rik Mayall has never developed beyond it. Some of Alexi Sayle's early TV work was interesting too. There were even interesting elements in the very early "Ab Fab", but they quickly suffocated. Added to which, of course, all those young "alternatives" are now in comfy middle age. The fires usually, eventually, burn out. Except mine, of course. The older I get, the angrier I get!

Edit. It just occurred to me. I wonder whether Mr is getting er as he gets older or whether he just likes the colour. I also wonder whether his ongoing absence is because, having seen the Napoleon series that NeoStar is talking about, he's off writing and directing his own version. In which Napoleon wins Waterloo, takes Russia, subdivides Elba and covers it with holiday villas.

To paraphrase dear old Bob Dwyer from his Tigers days we were dominant in every phase of the game except the scoreboard.

Dear old Bob, who handed over the Waratahs' coaching reins to Ewen McKenzie yesterday, retiring to head the Waratahs' version of an Academy. Great move.