Rugby World Cup 2003 - Finals!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


I think playing McDonald in front of Carter was a major error. Not that it would have changed anything.

Yeah, McDonald can kick, but not as well as Carter, and Carter is just as good (if not better) in other areas than McDonald.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Statistically, he had one bad game, but the evidence was that his strategy was flawed, yet nothing seemed to be done about it. As much as anything, I think he's paying for his attitudes along the way - no apologies, not inclusive, and so on. He said there's no such thing as loyalty in professional sport. As the old saying goes, if you live by the sword, you die by it.

I agree. He stuck with a flawed strategy that worked most of the time without trying to improve on the flaws. Any NZer who accuses England of being one-dimensional (ie too much kicking/forward play) needs to recognise that NZ are guilty of the same, but in different areas (passing without structure).

OTOH, while I'm not that familiar with the domestic NZ coaching scene, I don't know that there's anyone better available. Graham Henry is talking about bidding for the job, and the NZRFU would be insane to take that backward step. Mitchell's an obviously intelligent bloke capable of learning from what happened. I think they should have stuck with him. I suppose there's always a chance that, should he reapply, he could be the best available.

I'm hoping that is what will happen. I think part of what benefited England was the stability of a long-term coach. NZ needs this IMO.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Look, even Les Grenouilles could beat the Dermotties. This morning, their skipper, having already established that he's terrified of the vacuum cleaner when the cleaning lady uses it, bolted when she produced the mop.

This is the trouble with Sissies.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Yeah, McDonald can kick, but not as well as Carter, and Carter is just as good (if not better) in other areas than McDonald.

I agree with you, I have been far more impressed by Carter than by McDonald, Carter seems more polyvalent and more dangerous for the opponents.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


I agree with you, I have been far more impressed by Carter than by McDonald, Carter seems more polyvalent and more dangerous for the opponents.

Mitchell waited too long to incorporate him into the game plan. By the time the RWC started it was too late. This is why I'm hoping for Mitchell to stay on as coach - so he can have another chance at including Carter.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Yeah, McDonald can kick, but not as well as Carter, and Carter is just as good (if not better) in other areas than McDonald.

Carter's defence is better than McDonald's. Neither of them are up to Umaga's class in defence, though. With him missing, there was always going to be a weak spot there to be targeted by someone as strong as Mortlock or Tuquiri.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Carter's defence is better than McDonald's. Neither of them are up to Umaga's class in defence, though. With him missing, there was always going to be a weak spot there to be targeted by someone as strong as Mortlock or Tuquiri.

Yep, losing Umaga was definitely the biggest blow to the AB's RWC campaign. They still would have lost to Oz though.

[finbar]

Interesting changes announced for New Zealand rugby:

1) No more All Blacks Tests against minnows like the Pacific Island nations or the USA, just "elite" Tests;
2) Totally revamped NPC;
3) And they're happy to increase the S12 to S14 or S15 as long as there's commercial benefit for them.

In terms of #1, I have to say, how very arrogant of them.

[Havak]

the Stade Toulousain is playing against the Racing Club de Narbonne

And we take on our old enemy Bath who are currently running away with the league. Our only hope – all the Tigers report back for training today – including Jonno.

One day, we will show you, we will show the whole world we are the best...

I can see France hitting the number one spot well before RWC 2007 to be honest.

No, this a very low blow... I am even wondering if this is not a dirty blow.

T'was just a joke Mon Ami! Perhaps ill considered on my part. Michalak is one for the future – there is little doubt about that. He should be at the peak of his powers by 2007 – and Wilko will be an old man of 28.

Yes, Andrew Blades was talking about saying the same thing to Wilkinson.

I think they do need grounding in this way fairly swiftly if they are to remain useful rugby players. The hysteria got a little out of control around them. I had no worries about Jonno who took it all in his stride but Wilko did worry me – fortunately he seems a sensible enough lad.

If Giffin doesn't go on, he becomes the senior lock, which is a terrifying thought.

To say the least! I’m surprised Heenan wasn’t pulled into the squad for experience after Vickerman fell foul of Eddie. I guess I’ll have to watch Reds in the next S12 for my first glimpse?

Of course. But Wales didn't make the final.

Well at the risk of offending ‘Merlin’ who pops in here some times to hear some of them speak you would think they had! The crunch for Wales is their next game against fellow Celts. One loss to Scotland and all that good work goes up in smoke.

Regardless of Saturday night, I think there's an argument for reducing their value

Well one point would have been enough Saturday of course. The only coherent argument I can see is that England have someone supremely talented at them right now? That’s not a good enough reason for me.

The development of the game in the next four years in reality is likely not to move that way. With France next host and the trophy up here the focus is likely to be fairly NH?

Oh well, if you want to be beholden to a psychotic, so be it.

You misunderstood me – I didn’t want to criticise him so I could enjoy the victory a while longer before getting back into analysing him. If I feel beholden to anyone it’s my mate Jonno.

Sorry, I took it, justifiably, as yet more Pom ignorance of this part of the world. There's a lot of it.

The ‘cruel’ could be argued – the ‘destructive’ was the blatant bait. What it came across as to me was just rampant P taking – sometimes too rampant for Pom tastes as it sometimes annoyed even myself – and I’m very easy going. And there’s a sprinkling of ego – positive AND negative – thrown into it too at times?

But you need to remember that most Brits see a version of Oz generated by your fellow writers – at least the ones who couldn’t get real work – who churn out Neighbours as representative of Melbourne suburbs (and if I thought you mortality rate as really that high I would never has visited).

Then I guess there are many Aussies who watch Eastenders and think we all speak cockerney up here? Or Coronation Street and wonder why Mancunians don’t all sound like B rate thespians?

In fact, the restriction works both ways - the only reason Graeme Bond quit S12 for your part of the world was that he was told he didn't figure in Eddie's Wallaby plans. And he's not the only one.

Tell him to come home!! Sale have beaten us twice whilst our squad was castrated by the RWC!

Surely if S12 squads are closed to NH players that is unfair and unreasonable restraint? They aren’t of course – it’s just S12 doesn’t attract any because of money issues.

Kevin Yates, once of Bath, bit an opponents ear off and got a lengthy ban (and quite right!). After the ban he moved to one of the kiwi franchises for a few seasons to let things cool off here – definitely played S12 - then came back and singed for Sale I think. He has never troubled the England selectors before or after his transgression. That’s the type of Pom being attracted to S12.

The IRB needs a massive overhaul. Not that it will ever happen.

Not unless it becomes a democracy.

What concerns me in all this is that all the law changes over the last decade have certainly not been made to help NH teams – neutering the length scrums can drive, two phase limited mauls, the removal of the concept of rucking players off the ball etc. so how can they be accused of being a Celtic old boys club? I thought the friction was that O’Neil was the boy who cried wolf (or ‘unfair’) and it had brassed them right off.

Edit. Just to clarify Dermott's courage in terms that Havak would appreciate - Dermott makes Dan Luger look brave.

Thanks – that helped me understand it much more clearly! Poor Dan - with young Garvey and Simpson-Daniel in the wings his career may well be over.

In terms of #1, I have to say, how very arrogant of them.

Arrogance aside it’s very bad for the world game however they spin it. If minnows face big teams only at RWC how is the world game ever to grow and get more competitive?

And the AB contracted players will only play S12/14/15 not NPC? They could become the first nation to have senior players playing too little rugby?!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
I can see France hitting the number one spot well before RWC 2007 to be honest.

You are more optimist than me.

T'was just a joke Mon Ami! Perhaps ill considered on my part. Michalak is one for the future – there is little doubt about that. He should be at the peak of his powers by 2007 – and Wilko will be an old man of 28.

I was kidding myself...

[Havak]

Shucks - you got me.

I've been in an optimistic mood all week - cannot imagine why.

[flipside]

Ummmmm.......

You won then?
Six nations coming up.
It will be interesting to see how it is carried on.
I am glad that the NH have shown that trad. skills win.
Aus. showed belief.
If that does it, so can we.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I had no worries about Jonno who took it all in his stride but Wilko did worry me – fortunately he seems a sensible enough lad.

Wilkinson seems the least affected by it all. He's built his protective shell and he's staying inside it.

To say the least! I’m surprised Heenan wasn’t pulled into the squad for experience after Vickerman fell foul of Eddie. I guess I’ll have to watch Reds in the next S12 for my first glimpse?

You couldn't change your squad except for injury. I'll be looking forward to seeing how Heenan travels in S12 too.

Well at the risk of offending ‘Merlin’ who pops in here some times to hear some of them speak you would think they had! The crunch for Wales is their next game against fellow Celts. One loss to Scotland and all that good work goes up in smoke.

Yes, they have to maintain - at the least - the form they showed here. But they have to be ticked, relatively speaking, as the achievers of the event.

You misunderstood me – I didn’t want to criticise him so I could enjoy the victory a while longer before getting back into analysing him.

Whatever, I'm not going to let up.

The ‘cruel’ could be argued – the ‘destructive’ was the blatant bait. What it came across as to me was just rampant P taking – sometimes too rampant for Pom tastes as it sometimes annoyed even myself – and I’m very easy going. And there’s a sprinkling of ego – positive AND negative – thrown into it too at times?

Certainly some of it is rooted in the inferiority complex.

But you need to remember that most Brits see a version of Oz generated by your fellow writers – at least the ones who couldn’t get real work – who churn out Neighbours as representative of Melbourne suburbs (and if I thought you mortality rate as really that high I would never has visited).

Then I guess there are many Aussies who watch Eastenders and think we all speak cockerney up here? Or Coronation Street and wonder why Mancunians don’t all sound like B rate thespians?

Well, yes, and anyone who takes the contrivances that are characters in television series as indicative of anything needs his or head read. I worked on a series called "The Sullivans", about a family, set on the homefront in the years of WW2. It was made in the 1970s, so there was still a large percentage of the viewing audience who vividly remembered the period. The family mother was a sympathetic, always wise character. We used to get mail addressed to the character asking her advice on problems. The same thing would happen with similar series characters over there. On the one hand, it's scary that people can be so stupid. On the other hand, it's scary to realise the power one has over those people.

Surely if S12 squads are closed to NH players that is unfair and unreasonable restraint?

Against the NH players? Only if they had rights, which, given that Australia is a different country, they don't. If Australia were, God forbid, part of the EU, it might be a different matter.

Kevin Yates, once of Bath, bit an opponents ear off and got a lengthy ban (and quite right!). After the ban he moved to one of the kiwi franchises for a few seasons to let things cool off here – definitely played S12 - then came back and singed for Sale I think. He has never troubled the England selectors before or after his transgression. That’s the type of Pom being attracted to S12.

I don't recall him. Anyway, the Kiwi S12 franchises obviously don't have the same rules in place as we have. You don't have to be available to play for the ABs in order to get a Kiwi S12 gig. Caucau being a classic example.

the removal of the concept of rucking players off the ball

It depends how far off the ball you're talking about, but you can still ruck away from the ball. What they're policing is the boot action - requiring a backwards motion with the foot rather than the stomp.

Thanks – that helped me understand it much more clearly! Poor Dan - with young Garvey and Simpson-Daniel in the wings his career may well be over.

As I've observed before, bogus tries come home to roost.

Arrogance aside it’s very bad for the world game however they spin it. If minnows face big teams only at RWC how is the world game ever to grow and get more competitive?

Exactly. And arrogance can't be put aside, because arrogant is what it is.

And the AB contracted players will only play S12/14/15 not NPC? They could become the first nation to have senior players playing too little rugby?!

Yes, I read and re-read the announcement, because I took it to mean the AB contracted players wouldn't play NPC. I can't believe it. Even if S12 increases to S14 - I can't see it going to S15, unless they include a Pacific Islands franchise - that's only 26 matches. Add 4 for the Tri-Nations, that's 30. Plus Tests. How many Tests do they expect to add to the current roster?

Anyway, I find it a bizarre approach to trying to improve the AB game. I'd've thought a first - and less complicated - step would be to develop a game strategy beyond unstructured attack.

[finbar]

Oh, and I notice the Leicester scrummy copped 10 weeks for a Liverpool Kiss. Havak's obviously been down at training handing out tips again.

[Andydog]

I haven't had a chance to catch up since last week but just wanted to say congratulations to England, the new and deserved world champions! What a fantastic final - couldn't've asked for anything more exhilarating really. I have to say it was England I was supporting, I couldn’t stand the thought of the Aussies winning it for a third time. Any bets on when Woodward gets knighted?