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  • Ten Commandments unconstitutional!

    MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team.


    LOWER FEDERAL COURTS ruled Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore violated the Constitution’s ban on government promotion of religion by placing the 5,300-pound granite monument in the rotunda of the state Judicial Building. In two appeals to the Supreme Court, Moore argued that lower federal courts do not have authority over a state’s chief justice.

    Moore was suspended as chief justice for defying a federal court order to remove the monument. He goes on trial before the Alabama Court of the Judiciary on Nov. 12 on face judicial ethics charges for his refusal to comply with the order.

    Despite his refusal to comply with the order, the monument was wheeled to an out-of-the-way storage room in August. Two weeks of protests by Moore’s supporters followed. In recent weeks, demonstrators have carried the cause to the sidewalk outside the Supreme Court, with one protester dressed as Moses and carrying cardboard tablets.

    The Supreme Court’s order is not a ruling on the thorny question of whether the Ten Commandments may be displayed in government buildings or in the public square. It merely reflects the high court’s unwillingness to hear the appeal.

    LOWER COURTS DIVIDED

    Lower courts have splintered on the issue, allowing depictions of the Ten Commandments in some instances and not in others.

    Moore challenged the high court to settle the question once and for all, and accused the justices of ducking their responsibility to clarify murky questions about the constitutional principle of separation of church and state.

    The Supreme Court recently took on another divisive case about government and religion. Sometime next year, the justices will hear the case of a California atheist who objects to the phrase "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

    The Constitution sets out no absolute divide between God and government, and Moore argued that his Ten Commandments display was in keeping with the religious vision of the nation’s founders.

    The First Amendment guarantees that government will not actively endorse religion in general or favor one faith over another. The same amendment also guarantees an individual’s right to worship as he or she pleases.

    The Ten Commandments contain both religious and secular directives, including the familiar bans on stealing, killing and adultery. The Bible says God gave the list to Moses.

    BITTERLY DIVIDED

    Two years ago, the high court divided bitterly over whether to hear another case testing whether a different Ten Commandments monument could be displayed outside a civic building.

    The court opted at that time not to hear that case, but four justices nonetheless staked out a position on the issue.

    The three most conservative justices said they found nothing wrong with display of that monument outside the building housing local courts and prosecutors, city leaders in Elkhart, Ind. The setting reflected the cultural, historical and legal significance of the commandments, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for himself and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

    The monument, "simply reflects the Ten Commandments’ role in the development of our legal system," Rehnquist wrote for the three.

    He noted, "a carving of Moses holding the Ten Commandments, surrounded by representations of other historical legal figures, adorns the frieze on the south wall of our courtroom."

    At the opposite ideological end of the court, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that the words "I am the Lord thy God,' in the first line of the Elkhart monument’s inscription are rather hard to square with the proposition that the monument expresses no particular religious preference, Stevens wrote then.

    In the Alabama case, lower federal courts ruled that Moore violated the Constitution’s ban on government promotion of religion by placing the 5,300-pound granite monument in the rotunda of the state Judicial Building.

    In two appeals to the Supreme Court, Moore argued that lower federal courts do not have authority over a state’s chief justice.

    Lawyers for Moore’s legal opponents did not file any response to his appeals.

    The case is Moore v. Glassroth 03-468.



    I just have one comment.
    "I am the Lord thy God,' in the first line of the Elkhart monument’s inscription are rather hard to square with the proposition that the monument expresses no particular religious preference, Stevens wrote then.
    Tell me, does that citation favour Judaism, or Christianity? I think that it can be true for both religions. Therefore, the Ten Commandments do not favour one religion over another.

    Secondly I'm very chilled by Elkhart's phrasing. "expresses no particular religious preference' Is this now unconstitutional, to merely express a religious preference?
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

  • #2
    It expresses a preference for the Judeo-Christian set of religions over other religions, or none.

    And when the state expresses a "preference," that is chilling.
    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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    • #3
      imho, the people protesting the removal of the monument should have expended that energy doing christian things, like forgiving those that did them wrong and donating the time spent protesting at the nearby soup center.
      B♭3

      Comment


      • #4
        MtG:



        So Judaism and Christianity are the same religious preference?

        Do you have any commentary about the dissenting opinion?

        "simply reflects the Ten Commandments’ role in the development of our legal system,"
        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

        Comment


        • #5
          Yay!
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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          • #6
            imho, the people protesting the removal of the monument should have expended that energy doing christian things, like forgiving those that did them wrong and donating the time spent protesting at the nearby soup center.
            Agreed. However, this thread is not about the protesters, but about the constitutional arguments.

            Is establishing a religion the same as expressing a preference? Do the Ten commandments express a particular religious preference?
            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
              Do you have any commentary about the dissenting opinion?

              "simply reflects the Ten Commandments’ role in the development of our legal system,"
              This is BS. It's just a way for Fundies to sneak religion in past stupid people. Our legal system is based on Rome, not Jerusalem.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

              Comment


              • #8
                Is establishing a religion the same as expressing a preference? Do the Ten commandments express a particular religious preference?


                unless you establish all religions, establishing one, or only a few, is creating a preference by giving the government's tacit blessing to those faiths.

                the ten commandment display showcased the judeo-christian tradition, which, although it comprises the faith of a vast majority of americans, strongly suggested through moore and his supporters' statements that the display was less about law and history and more about religion and its place in the government--where it has none.
                B♭3

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                • #9
                  Our legal system is based on Rome, not Jerusalem.


                  i'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that canon law is the basis of american civil law?
                  B♭3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                    MtG:



                    So Judaism and Christianity are the same religious preference?
                    Is Christianity a single religious preference? Tell that to Jack Chick and Fred Phelps, who insist my Catholic anti-Christ pope loving ass is hell-bound.

                    Who was Christ descended from? What is the historical origin of Christianity?

                    It is mere semantics to claim there isn't a great common heritage between the two religious systems.

                    Do you have any commentary about the dissenting opinion?

                    "simply reflects the Ten Commandments’ role in the development of our legal system,"
                    In Judge Moore's case, he was very honest that it was his Christian God's role that was being celebrated. Nothing else need apply.

                    Dissenting opinions have no force of law, let alone dissents from denial of cert, which is what you have here, but CJ Rehnquist fails to distinguish that in the Supreme Court building in Washington, the frieze of Moses and the ten commandments is only one part of the docorative work in the theme of sources of law, and that there are many other representations there of other lawgivers and sources of law.

                    In Judge Moore's case, and in the Elkhart case, it was pretty clear by the proponent's own words that they intended to promote Christianity through their public (official) authority, but the City of Elkhart plaintiffs started some of that semantic heming and hawing that probably really doesn't please God that much. At least Judge Moore has complete honesty, consistency and integrity going for him. Unfortunately for him, that worsens his case because it makes the violation more clear.
                    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                    • #11
                      through moore and his supporters' statements
                      Q^3:

                      Fair enough. If we follow your reasoning this case would only apply to Moore's case and not around the country. Other depictions would not be restricted.

                      Che:

                      So then we ought to have an established religion just like Constantine if that is the case. The Founders had very religious motives for enshrining the free exercise of religion.
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                        Che:

                        So then we ought to have an established religion just like Constantine if that is the case. The Founders had very religious motives for enshrining the free exercise of religion.
                        Ben - if you ever go to Boston, at the Granary Burying Ground (where Ben Franklin and Sam Adams, among others famous and less so are buried) there is a grave of a 16 year old girl who was hanged at Boston Common in 1660 for the "crime" of preaching the Quaker (Christian) faith, in violation of the Puritan (Christian) laws in effect at the time. That is where the mix of state power and religion takes you.

                        The right to free exercise of religion (free from interference by the state) is inextricably intertwined with preventing the state from asserting a favored religion, and thereby directly or indirectly "influencing" or intimidating or merely showing disfavor to those who have other beliefs. There is no good reason for the state to have any position at all, at any level, on any religious preference.
                        When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                        • #13
                          I am all for throwing out the separation of Church and State and establishing the USA as a Christian nation.

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                          • #14
                            You have some like-minded buddies in Tehran.

                            Oh, and you heathens are stuck with a Catholic nation, because we know that the Roman Catholic church is the true Christian church.

                            Ooops, so much for that system.
                            When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ten Commandments unconstitutional!

                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                              Tell me, does that citation favour Judaism, or Christianity? I think that it can be true for both religions. Therefore, the Ten Commandments do not favour one religion over another.

                              Secondly I'm very chilled by Elkhart's phrasing. "expresses no particular religious preference' Is this now unconstitutional, to merely express a religious preference?
                              You don't get it, do you??

                              You are free to express your religious beliefs -- but the government cannot support or favor certain types of religions over others.
                              A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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