Hey Jewish guys of Poly...

[Pekka]

lord of the mark, What anti-semitic actions? What anti-Israel rhetorics does Europe use?

Again and again the same mistake. We don't have any common practice here in Europe. You see what you want to see. Israels conflict with Palestinian terror groups gets whole lots of media time here.
It looks like you get huge masses of anti-european media time, or how euros are so anti-semitic comparing to any other parts of the world. But I guess that is because we are all brainwashed. And what's that? How does Europe brainwash itself? Is there a conspiracy somewhere that is behind this? Accusations, used to blame the whole europe as one. That anti-europeanism in my book, then. I know there are lots of euros that blame Israel for this and that and throw the accusations all the time, but if that makes them anti-semitic, surely the ones doing the same to euros are also anti-europeans.

Not a single Jew is in danger in my country. There has been no attacks in here. We don't boycott Israeli products here. We do have a jackass for foreign minister for sure, but our official policy towards Israel is NOT anti-israel in any damn way. So, what do you use to justify calling us anti-semites all the time and that's somehow politically correct?

What about Norway? What about Portugal? What about Spain? What about UK? Everyone should STOP ALWAYS LUMPING THE WHOLE EUROPE AS ONE. EVERYONE SHOULD REALLY REMEMBER IT THE NEXT WEEK TOO, because it seems like it's always forgotten. There are lots of countries in Europe that are not anti-semitic even by these definitions. And blame the whole europe for the darker times? As again, it said europe is falling for the dark ages if this continues. We never had dark ages. We fought SU. So, if that's not anti-european I don't know what is? Accusations.

So, next time I read these, I'd be happy if they focused on the ones that are anti-semitic, and try to exclude those, who have nothing to do with it. Because that's the right thing to do.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?"

I'm not sure that's a good way t put it. Under those terms, as an Austrian citizen, why should I be in any way responsible for the actions of the German state? And Austria isn't a german successor state either.... maybe a bit too formal.

What it comes down to and what I meant: I'm not guilty of anything by virtue of nationality - and that's what national guilt implies. That my nation has a responsibility or an obligation, fine. If my grandfather stole your grandfather's house, I'm not guilty of theft, but I still should return it.

austria isnt treated legally as a German successor state, just as Ukraine is not considered a USSR successor state. This is somewhat arbitrary. In particular post WW2 Austria was not treated as in any way responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, though during 1938-1945 Austrians were German citizens equal with other Germans, and there was less resistance in Austria then there was in Prussia. However given cold war conditions, as well as the allied determination to consider Austria independent, it was in no power's interest to consider Austria as a German successor state.


To refine what you have said slightly, its not as if im holding property my grandfather stole. Its as if my grandfather committed what in the common law we call a "tort" he did a wrong for which it possible to sue for damages. As his heir, who received his estate, I am obliged to repay. In some cases the nature of the inheritance among multiple heirs may make that somewhat more complex.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Many are saying that anti-semitism is widespread in Europe, and are basing this not only on Anti-semitic actions, but on Anti-israel rhetoric, which goes beyond criticisms of Israeli policies to rhetorical tropes that strike many Jews, and many non-Jewish Americans, as anti-semitic.

And who is saying that? How far are those comments self-serving, when we talk say about some lobby groups?

Those radical zionist groups have turned "antisemitic" to mean "critical of Israel". They think that will discredit criticism of Israel. It worked in the US. It will not work in Europe. The problem is that it creates a blur between actual, classic antisemites and newspeak antisemites.

A few years ago, I would have been insulted by being called an antisemite. Now the term has been so overused that I don't give a flying **** about it.

[HershOstropoler]

"This is somewhat arbitrary."

Which was exactly the point.

"Its as if my grandfather committed what in the common law we call a "tort" he did a wrong for which it possible to sue for damages."

Doesn't matter whether it's compensation or restitution, with the difference that certain torts are personal in nature and active legitimacy can't be inherited. But that's too formal too.

[Pekka]

And I know Europe is full of BS most of the times. I don't like it myself most times, I want to get out of here!

But still, I can't help but take it personally sometimes, that I've been accused of something I'm not guilty of. So I think I have the right to be angry about it sometimes.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Pekka
lord of the mark, What anti-semitic actions? What anti-Israel rhetorics does Europe use?

Again and again the same mistake. We don't have any common practice here in Europe. You see what you want to see. Israels conflict with Palestinian terror groups gets whole lots of media time here.
It looks like you get huge masses of anti-european media time, or how euros are so anti-semitic comparing to any other parts of the world. But I guess that is because we are all brainwashed. And what's that? How does Europe brainwash itself? Is there a conspiracy somewhere that is behind this? Accusations, used to blame the whole europe as one. That anti-europeanism in my book, then. I know there are lots of euros that blame Israel for this and that and throw the accusations all the time, but if that makes them anti-semitic, surely the ones doing the same to euros are also anti-europeans.

Not a single Jew is in danger in my country. There has been no attacks in here. We don't boycott Israeli products here. We do have a jackass for foreign minister for sure, but our official policy towards Israel is NOT anti-israel in any damn way. So, what do you use to justify calling us anti-semites all the time and that's somehow politically correct?

What about Norway? What about Portugal? What about Spain? What about UK? Everyone should STOP ALWAYS LUMPING THE WHOLE EUROPE AS ONE. EVERYONE SHOULD REALLY REMEMBER IT THE NEXT WEEK TOO, because it seems like it's always forgotten. There are lots of countries in Europe that are not anti-semitic even by these definitions. And blame the whole europe for the darker times? As again, it said europe is falling for the dark ages if this continues. We never had dark ages. We fought SU. So, if that's not anti-european I don't know what is? Accusations.

So, next time I read these, I'd be happy if they focused on the ones that are anti-semitic, and try to exclude those, who have nothing to do with it. Because that's the right thing to do.

yeah, well - when some said that "europe" opposed US policy on Iraq, it was Donald Rumsfeld who tried to distinguish among Europeans. He has yet to live that down. Should I have said France and Belgium, and to a lesser extent Britain and Germany, oh, and definitely Ireland, and so forth and so on? "europeans" dont seem to take kindly to Americans drawing such distinctions. They seem to take it us trying to meddle, and seperate an emerging European identity.

Im sorry - i didnt mean to imply that Helsinki has as many antisemitic incidents as Paris, or that that the Finnish FM is like the Belgian, or that Finland has any newspapers are like the (UK) Independent.

However given that europe, Finland included, is trying to form an international confederation, that, if not a super state, seems close to it, I hardly think its bigoted to make statements about trends across the continent. Would it be anti_american for a european to point out that the US has many people on death row, when in fact many states dont have the death penalty? If you wish to be part of a united Europe, than what happens in Paris, and Brussels and London is also yours, just as what happens in Wyoming and Mississippi is also mine.

If europeans DONT feel responsible for what happens in each others states, then the future of this federal thing will be neither long nor good.

[Az]

hmmm... the early Bolsheviks forced the resettlement of millions, some on purely ethnic grounds (Tartars, Cossacks) and starved to death or outright killed millions of others... including entire families.

the early bolsheviks didn't kill in a well-thought out manner millions of people.

The tenets of Communism attracted many educated, secular Jews, as it attracted many other urban yet underrepresented people.

what's your point? Noone claims that whoever commited atrocities should go unpunished. OTOH, this has nothing to do with being jews.

It is also ignorant to believe that Jews are the only victims of historical wrongs, including genocide acts or incapable of perpetrating such acts themselves.

Strawman. Noone has claimed that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


And who is saying that? How far are those comments self-serving, when we talk say about some lobby groups?

Those radical zionist groups have turned "antisemitic" to mean "critical of Israel". They think that will discredit criticism of Israel. It worked in the US. It will not work in Europe. The problem is that it creates a blur between actual, classic antisemites and newspeak antisemites.

A few years ago, I would have been insulted by being called an antisemite. Now the term has been so overused that I don't give a flying **** about it.

The groups that are saying it are not "radically zionist" imho. And they are not selfserving, IMHO. I have seen some of the newspaper articles, some of the cartoons, etc and I agree that they are antisemitic. YOu may think I am self serving.

It has not worked in the US. AMericans are often critical of Israel. But you dont see (usually) the kind of antisemitic rhetoric employed here.

Let me ask you this - would you consider ANY criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, as long as it distinguished between Israelis and diaspora Jews? Are there any cartoons, any comparisons to the Nazis, any kind of rhetoric deployed against Israel that you would consider antisemitic?

[Pekka]

lord of the mark, I guess you're right though.. TRUE euros always want to feel like they are euros and not so much their original nationality. I don't know.. maybe I'm minority in that sense, so I guess it's not a mistake then to say so, say that europe this and that.. some people here want it..

and I didn't that you made those mistakes.. I meant in general. Besides, our FM is a weirdo human rights activist leftist commie dildo, who could have some anti-semitic cells in his body. For him, I don't give any guarantees. I'm glad Israel has understood us, because he kind of spoke about his own mind with some Israel politician and it got all over the papers because he was being a butthole about it. I think it was german for example and said the same things, he'd be divorced in less than one second. So you know.. he is a jackass for sure, and Israel could have made a case about it, but didn't, so that I appreciate.. not singleing us out when it was possible.

Aanyway, I see what you mean, and I agree. I think it'll be good economically, horrible foreign politically, horrible.
I'm done speaking, I just need to get out of here anyway, so I can join the euro-bashers .

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What's so difficult with the concept of holding people responsible for what they have personally done? I am not responsible for the actions of my forefathers, neither are the Jews or the Germans. Any restitution offered is a form of mercy and ought to be treated as such rather than an entitlement.

Otherwise one could look at the Irish famine, and argue that all the descendents of the British ought to pay the descendents of the Irish. And I would have to pay myself.

So ben, are you unwilling to repay the bonded debt of the Canadian state? Restituiotn is NOT a form of mercy, it is a legal obligation. Just like paying someone damages when you crash into their car.

You ask for mercy from a judge. The Jews did not ask for judgement from the Germans, but for restitution.

[lord of the mark]

a poll


From the ADL

"In June 2002 ADL conducted a similar survey in Belgium, France, Denmark, Germany and the United Kingdom. Following are country comparisons from the two surveys:
Percentage of those who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country: Spain 72%, Italy 58%, Germany 55%, Austria 54%, Belgium 50%, Switzerland 49%, The Netherlands 48%, Denmark 45%, France, 42% UK, 34%
Percentage of those who believe Jews have too much power in the business world: Spain 63%, Belgium 44%, France 42%, Austria 40%, Switzerland 37%, Germany 32%, UK 21%, The Netherlands 20%, Denmark 13%
Percentage of those who believe Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust: Germany 58%, Spain 57%, Austria 56%, Switzerland 52%, France 46%, Italy 43%, Belgium 38%, The Netherlands 35%, Denmark 30%, UK 23% "

[Ben Kenobi]

LotM:

So ben, are you unwilling to repay the bonded debt of the Canadian state?

No, we have our own skeletons, particularly with aboriginals here in BC. I would be willing to pay but through mercy, not because it would be expected or required. I did not kill aboriginals, or steal their land, should I be required to pay restitution?

Restituiotn is NOT a form of mercy, it is a legal obligation. Just like paying someone damages when you crash into their car.

Agreed. However, how can I be held personally responsible for the actions of my forefathers here in Canada? This is why you have a false analogy.

[Sandman]

Similarly it seems to me that anyone who wishes to be a German citizen has a share in the liabilities of the German state, including responsibity for reperations.

What about Jewish German citizens? Should they pay reparations too?

And of course, I strongly disagree with your claim that Europe is anti-semitic.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

It has not worked in the US. AMericans are often critical of Israel. But you dont see (usually) the kind of antisemitic rhetoric employed here.

The criticism is very muted, and it's a lot harsher here. We just draw different conclusions. You see antisemitism here, I see a big fat pro-Israeli bias there.

"would you consider ANY criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, as long as it distinguished between Israelis and diaspora Jews?"

You mean would I see that destinction make it automatically not antisemitic? No. There are the old antijewish groups who use Israel as a vehicle. But there are also many people who simply think Israel is following deplorable policies.

"Are there any cartoons, any comparisons to the Nazis, any kind of rhetoric deployed against Israel that you would consider antisemitic?"

Sure. Just not automatically.

As for the poll: I'm very sceptical about those nrs supposedly measuring antisemitism, I've seen them varying between 10 and 40 % roughly. The ADL seems to be on for a record. As soon as you ask for a gross generalization and offer only yes and no, you distort the picture.

"Percentage of those who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country"

I'd say that's for every Jew to decide. If he feels a stronger loyalty for Israel, why not.

The business world stereotype is usually still quite strong, but I wonder whether this is the question asked. Usually you get high nrs by phrasing it as "bigger than their population share", or something in that direction.

"Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust" - if that refers to Israeli government and pro-israeli lobbying organisations: I'd also say yes. More importantly, often in the wrong context. The "Holocaust Industry" is exaggerated, but putting the finger on a real problem.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
LotM:



No, we have our own skeletons, particularly with aboriginals here in BC. I would be willing to pay but through mercy, not because it would be expected or required. I did not kill aboriginals, or steal their land, should I be required to pay restitution?



Agreed. However, how can I be held personally responsible for the actions of my forefathers here in Canada? This is why you have a false analogy.

You misudnestand me - i didnt mention aboriginals. If ic all my broker, he can probably by a bond issued by the Canadian Treasury (TreasCan?). You know, the kind of thing that says payable to bearer, $1000 Cdn. That kind of thing. It shows youre govt borrowed money, at some point, to build some loony highway through the spruce forests or whatever. Are you willing to pay taxes to pay off the loan? Even though you personally didnt make the loan? Even though the loan may have been made before you were born? To build a highway you think is a bad idea?

do you think repayment of a debt is a form of mercy, not an entitlement? Remind me not to lend money to you.