Hey Jewish guys of Poly...

[Whaleboy]

Can someone explain to me, in logical, literal terms, what was so bad about his speech? After having read the article just now , I fail to see the problem .

"I'm a German. The Jews could be regarded of being guilty of something. The logic is flawed. Nor Jews or Germans today are guilty of anything".

Seems like a reasonable critical analysis?

[Pekka]

It is stupid for this man to take the whole group of people, Jews, and go on about it like this.

But I'd like to remind, that this is what some people do for Euros. 'Europe is anti-semite'. Some people are. Not all. So, that's anti-europeanism. Agreed?

[Whaleboy]

But he is saying that "Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators", so there can be no shared ethnic blame. Your argument is a strawman.

[Pekka]

If that is how he concludes his speech, then what was the point of his speech to begin with? That I fail to see.

[Az]

The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis. This is in no way a valid comparison. I don't think that he's an anti-semite, or that his statement, taken alone, is. It's still is an extremely stupid statement, though I don't think he should be tried for it.

[Whaleboy]

If that is how he concludes his speech, then what was the point of his speech to begin with? That I fail to see.

None, if you assume his intentions to be anti-semitic, which they don't seem to be. Nonetheless, tell that to the reactionaries .

The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis. This is in no way a valid comparison. I don't think that he's an anti-semite, or that his statement, taken alone, is. It's still is an extremely stupid statement, though I don't think he should be tried for it.

His comparison is flawed, Azazel you are indeed correct in saying that. There are plenty more ways to critique his speech than a knee-jerk ad hominem that does nothing to attack his argument. I trust it is you who would rectify that situation, and as a critical analyst, it is appreciated.

[HershOstropoler]

It was an incredibly clumsy way of saying that neither the actions of Jews in the Russian revolution nor those of the Nazis in the Holocaust warrant natonal guilt. The implied comparison is stupid indeed.

As for national guilt, there is no such thing. National responsibility, yes.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by David Floyd


No, Jews should only be blamed for crimes that Jews committed. That means that if a Jew, in the employ of the communists, committed a crime, then that Jew should be held responsible, as should a Christian, Muslim, Ukrainian, or anyone else.


Individuals, including Jews, should be criticized for their own actions. So, if a Jewish Russian working for the communists participated in mass murder, he should be held responsible.

.

But he didnt name particular Jews - he named Jews as a group.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
But he is saying that "Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators", so there can be no shared ethnic blame. Your argument is a strawman.

Whos saying the Germans are a RACE of perpetrators? The context is a discussion of holding the GERMAN state responsible for past actions. Does someone want to hold the Russian state reponsible for actions of the USSR (of which Russia is the legal successor) Fine. Jews ARENT the Russian state. Why single out Jews?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
It was an incredibly clumsy way of saying that neither the actions of Jews in the Russian revolution nor those of the Nazis in the Holocaust warrant natonal guilt. The implied comparison is stupid indeed.

As for national guilt, there is no such thing. National responsibility, yes.

The question I see is is their a national obligation. To me when you assert rights of citizenship in a state, that implies taking on the liabilities of that state as well.

I knew a girl in high school who didnt think she should feel an sense of obligation toward native Americans, since she was the daughter of refugees from Europe who came in the 1930's. I thought (and still think) her thinking was confused. She embraced American citizenship, with all the privileges that go with it. She wouldnt think of disavowing her share in the national bonded debt, evev the portions incurred prior to 1930. Similarly why should she disavow her share inthe obligations IF ANY for reparation towards Native Americans? When her parents took on US citizenship, they took on the obligations of Americans, as well as the assets.

Similarly it seems to me that anyone who wishes to be a German citizen has a share in the liabilities of the German state, including responsibity for reperations.

I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Note that I couldn't be bothered to read the article

I'm fed up of many in the Jewish community that seem to regard the holocaust as an excuse for people to get away with murder, sometimes literally. As a Jew myself I feel that this is something that history will not judge kindly.

I expect that ANYONE who commits an atrocity should be dealt with and regarded in the same way as any other, be they Jewish or otherwise. My religious cousin, when faced with the reports of the barbarism of Israeli troops in the occupied territories, says, "well "they" did it to us in the holocaust" .

If your cousin is implying that what the Israeli troops are doing in the territories is what the Germans did in Europe, he is not only morally incorrect, he is woefully ill-informed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Pekka
It is stupid for this man to take the whole group of people, Jews, and go on about it like this.

But I'd like to remind, that this is what some people do for Euros. 'Europe is anti-semite'. Some people are. Not all. So, that's anti-europeanism. Agreed?

if they are saying "all europeans are anti-semites" that is obviously absurd.

Many are saying that anti-semitism is widespread in Europe, and are basing this not only on Anti-semitic actions, but on Anti-israel rhetoric, which goes beyond criticisms of Israeli policies to rhetorical tropes that strike many Jews, and many non-Jewish Americans, as anti-semitic. Many europeans see these as automatically not antisemitic as long as they are directed at Israel, and not at Jews globally.

[HershOstropoler]

"I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?"

I'm not sure that's a good way t put it. Under those terms, as an Austrian citizen, why should I be in any way responsible for the actions of the German state? And Austria isn't a german successor state either.... maybe a bit too formal.

What it comes down to and what I meant: I'm not guilty of anything by virtue of nationality - and that's what national guilt implies. That my nation has a responsibility or an obligation, fine. If my grandfather stole your grandfather's house, I'm not guilty of theft, but I still should return it.

[Uncle Sparky]

Originally posted by Azazel
The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis.

hmmm... the early Bolsheviks forced the resettlement of millions, some on purely ethnic grounds (Tartars, Cossacks) and starved to death or outright killed millions of others... including entire families. The tenets of Communism attracted many educated, secular Jews, as it attracted many other urban yet underrepresented people.

How is this an unfair comparison ? It is extremely ignorant to believe the Bolsheviks were nice folks who were embraced by the people the ended up exterminating. It is also ignorant to believe that Jews are the only victims of historical wrongs, including genocide acts or incapable of perpetrating such acts themselves.

[Ben Kenobi]

What's so difficult with the concept of holding people responsible for what they have personally done? I am not responsible for the actions of my forefathers, neither are the Jews or the Germans. Any restitution offered is a form of mercy and ought to be treated as such rather than an entitlement.

Otherwise one could look at the Irish famine, and argue that all the descendents of the British ought to pay the descendents of the Irish. And I would have to pay myself.