Tom Paine hates tolerance!

[Ben Kenobi]

"Toleration is not the opposite of Intolerance, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding Liberty of Conscience, and the other of granting it."

I never knew Tom Paine said these words, but I did find them in the Rights of Man.

Any one see these words before?

[Asher]

Any relation to Max?

[Ben Kenobi]

Educate thyself!

http://www.constitution.org/tp/paine.htm

[Berzerker]

The one assumes to itself the right of withholding Liberty of Conscience, and the other of granting it.

What does that mean?

[The Mad Monk]

Tom Paine was a fount of extreme views.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Tom Paine hates tolerance!

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
"Toleration is not the opposite of Intolerance, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding Liberty of Conscience, and the other of granting it."

I never knew Tom Paine said these words, but I did find them in the Rights of Man.

Any one see these words before?

Before you go quoting Tom Paine too much, you might want to look at his description of Christianity.

And I wouldn't take too much joy from ol' Tom if I were you - he was shock jock talk radio two centuries ahead of his time. His views on a lot of things were self-promotional, as he realized that controversy and unconventional views sold. Thus tolerance was an enemy to sales of his tracts.

[Berzerker]

Tom Paine was a fount of extreme views.

And that's a bad thing?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Educate thyself!

Indeed. Are you sure you want to be quoting Mr. Paine?

The Christian Mythologists tell us that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterward, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan.

Thus far the ancient and the Christian Mythologists differ very little from each other. But the latter have contrived to carry the matter much farther. They have contrived to connect the fabulous part of the story of Jesus Christ with the fable originating from Mount Etna; and in order to make all the parts of the story tie together, they have taken to their aid the traditions of the Jews; for the Christian mythology is made up partly from the ancient mythology and partly from the Jewish traditions.

The Christian Mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the Garden of Eden, in the shape of a snake or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no way surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tete is that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.

After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the Church Mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit; or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain), or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women and doing more mischief. But instead of this they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole- the secret of which is, that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology?

Having thus made an insurrection and a battle in Heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded- put Satan into the pit- let him out again- giving him a triumph over the whole creation- damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, these Christian Mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together.

They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and Man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing had eaten an apple.

Putting aside everything that might excite laughter by its absurdity, or detestation by its profaneness, and confining ourselves merely to an examination of the parts, it is impossible to conceive a story more derogatory to the Almighty, more inconsistent with his wisdom, more contradictory to his power, than this story is.

In order to make for it a foundation to rise upon, the inventors were under the necessity of giving to the being whom they call Satan, a power equally as great, if not greater than they attribute to the Almighty. They have not only given him the power of liberating himself from the pit, after what they call his fall, but they have
made that power increase afterward to infinity. Before this fall they represent him only as an angel of limited existence, as they represent the rest. After his fall, he becomes, by their account, omnipresent. He exists everywhere, and at the same time. He occupies
the whole immensity of space.

Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. They represent him as having compelled the Almighty to the direct necessity either of surrendering the whole of the creation to the government and sovereignty of this Satan, or of capitulating for its redemption by coming down upon earth, and exhibiting himself upon a cross in the shape of a man.

Had the inventors of this story told it the contrary way, that is, had they represented the Almighty as compelling Satan to exhibit himself on a cross, in the shape of a snake, as a punishment for his new transgression, the story would have been less absurd- less contradictory. But instead of this, they make the transgressor triumph, and the Almighty fall.

That many good men have believed this strange fable, and lived very good lives under that belief (for credulity is not a crime), is what I have no doubt of. In the first place, they were educated to believe it, and they would have believed anything else in the same
manner. There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story. The more unnatural anything is, the more it is capable of becoming the object of dismal admiration.

[The Mad Monk]

Anyone interested in Tom Paine's attitude towards tolerance should read this:

American Crisis (1780-83)
4/19 IIIb - To the honorable the Council of Safety of the State of Pennsylvania : Philadelphia, April 19, 1777

MtG: "shock jock" was the very phrase I was thinking of.

[cinch]

Re: Tom Paine hates tolerance!

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
"Toleration is not the opposite of Intolerance, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding Liberty of Conscience, and the other of granting it."

Perhaps this is just how I'm reading it, but this is what I get out of it:

Intolerance = withholding Liberty of Conscience = 'you can't do this because I don't like it'

Tolerance = granting Liberty of Conscience = 'I say it's okay that you can do this'

The problem with intolerance is that the intolerant one assumes he has the power to decide what is right or wrong for another person.

The problem with tolerance is exactly the same. The tolerant one basically says that they 'allow' the taboo thing to go on, as if they have the power to decide what is okay and what isn't.

For example, if Tom Paine were alive today, he'd probably be for gay marriage, not because he thought it was okay, but because it was none of his business/concern.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and Paine was the Limbaugh of the late 1700s. Meh.

[Berzerker]

Cinch, good analysis. The tolerant one presumes, just as the intolerant one, to have the authority to decide what belief is allowed. In that they are no different...

[MichaeltheGreat]

I can't tolerate your tolerance, because your tolerance makes you intolerant and my intolerance of your intolerant tolerance makes me ...

[Ben Kenobi]

MtG:

I'm not quoting him, I have to read him for school.

And who says I take joy from what he says?

I find your quotations interesting.

He seems to be asking questions about why an Almighty God who is good would permit Satan to roam the Earth after the fall.

it is impossible to conceive a story more derogatory to the Almighty, more inconsistent with his wisdom, more contradictory to his power, than this story is.

Note, this argument presume an Almighty God who is good.

They represent him as having compelled the Almighty to the direct necessity either of surrendering the whole of the creation to the government and sovereignty of this Satan, or of capitulating for its redemption by coming down upon earth, and exhibiting himself upon a cross in the shape of a man.

Again, this is from the position that there exists an Almighty God who is good.

I don't see why Christianity ought to fear these questions because they have been asked a great deal of times by a good number of faithful people struggling to make sense of the creation account.

[orange]

I've heard it before, and somewhat agree with it

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: Tom Paine hates tolerance!

Originally posted by cinch
The problem with intolerance is that the intolerant one assumes he has the power to decide what is right or wrong for another person.

While I agree Tom is probably right on a somewhat higher level, I do not see it as unreasonable for people to hold opinions on various issues.