Tom Paine hates tolerance!

[Berzerker]

I'd disagree with Paine on his point though, while there are obviously "tolerant" people who still believe they have the authority to dictate what others believe (college campuses are notorious for this "tolerance"), there are also tolerant people who make no presumption of this authority.

[cinch]

Re: Re: Re: Tom Paine hates tolerance!

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


While I agree Tom is probably right on a somewhat higher level, I do not see it as unreasonable for people to hold opinions on various issues.

I agree with this. I think Paine's point is valid on an intellectual level. A sort of "Hmmm, interesting to think about it that way" way.

But in practical, everyday life... not so much.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Berzerker
What does that mean?

(NOTE: this was about the Liberty of Conscience part)

It means that if you require tolerance, you are withholding the right of a person to exercise their own conscience and decide whether or not to tolerate something (like murder). If you require intolerance, you are saying that you are the arbiter of what is right and wrong, that you are the one who decides to grant rights to people.

[Berzerker]

skywalker - therein lies the problem, "requiring" tolerance. To require tolerance is in itself, intolerant and I'd agree with Paine on that. But one can be tolerant without requiring tolerance from others. For example, while I find racism repugnant I would not "require" a law to forbid it. Liberals do require that law and seek to expand beyond their past achievements (anti-discrimination laws). Socially conservative Christians (and I use the term "Christian" loosely) will be quite vocal in their condemnation of "sinners" and seek laws to punish "sin", but then they complain about anti-Christian bigotry, i.e., people who vocally oppose them and their agenda. Both groups require intolerance while asking that others tolerate them...

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, but "being tolerant" is not what Paine is talking about. He is talking about saying "tolerance is the right thing" or government-mandated tolerance.

[The Templar]

MtG:

Thanks for that Christianity thing by Tom Paine, I'm still laughing.

[Berzerker]

Skywalker - I'd have to disagree with your analysis.

"Toleration is not the opposite of Intolerance, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding Liberty of Conscience, and the other of granting it."

Tolerance = granting liberty of conscience
Intolerance = withholding liberty of conscience

Both presume the authority to allow or not.

But I have a problem, either I'm confusing the terms being equated or Paine got them mixed up. It seems the first term - tolerance - should not correspond to the first attribution in the second sentence (right of withholding) and the second term - intolerance - should not correspond to the last attribution (granting liberty of conscience). See what I mean? Paine lined up tolerance with withholding liberty and intolerance of granting liberty. The attributions in the second part should be reversed...

[Berzerker]

Yes, but "being tolerant" is not what Paine is talking about. He is talking about saying "tolerance is the right thing" or government-mandated tolerance.

Well, obviously there is a paradox of saying we should be tolerant because that's the "right" thing when the intolerant say we should be intolerant because that's the "right" thing too. Or should I say, the paradox is when the tolerant say we need government mandated tolerance? Yeah, because we can be tolerant or intolerant of bad, albeit non-criminal, behavior without asking for a law against that behavior.

[Berzerker]

Ugh, forget it