Why I think a communist revolution is a pipe dream in United States.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
of course Mr. Fun is absolutely right, as I thought most modern marxists would agree... they always say that america avoided revolution by making some concessions (New Deal) while simultaneously inundating the masses with materialism and commercialism. i swore you said something to that effect many times, chegitz... now you disagree with mr. fun who is re-stating what you said a dozen times? interesting...

good point -- one that I did not realize

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Um...Well, I at least can't because I agree with you

[Ramo]

Not with the surveilence the Illuminati have upon you.

Who do you think the Illuminatti really take orders from?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Not with the surveilence the Illuminati have upon you.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Why I think a communist revolution is a pipe dream in United States.

Originally posted by MrFun
1) Nearly half of the citizenry that are eligible to vote are apolitical/apathetic. There is no way that commies can mobilize enough supporters for an electoral revolution.

People have the capacity to change. In revolutionary situations, they can change overnight, literally. If we look at the last period when a revolution seemed possible, the 1960s, we can notice a dramatic change in the mood of the populace from 1965 to 1970.

2) Believe it or not, religion still seems to have value to varying extents,

Really!?! Wow. Every revolution has taken place in a country with a great deal of religious feeling. When given a choice between religion and starvation or no religion and action, most people choose action. The U.S. has always been a very religious country. Yet in 1877, in the 1930s, and in the 1960s &'70s, the U.S. was very close to revolution (in some periods more than others).

3) Most of the working class, along with the middle class, like the idea of earning what they own.

This assumes, stupidly, that workers in other societies didn't own what they earned. This is like saying, socialism will fail because people like breathing oxygen. It's a meaningless statement.

They also place market value on what skills individuals have -- no one likes the idea of being paid the same as someone much lower down the economic ladder, yet working much harder than that person.

People who work harder will be rewarded more. People who work better will also be rewarded. Despite the fact that I have repeated it countless times, socialism and communism are not about levelling.

4) Moderate liberals, such as myself, continue to believe that we can reform -- not revolutionize -- our nation/society in ways that can improve the quality of life for a greater number of our citizens.

There's nothing wrong with reform. Communists are among the strongest proponents of reform. If we could achieve a just society through reform alone, there would be no communists. When the capitalists sabotage your reforms, however, you have no answer. You cannot take the necessary steps to defend your reforms, because that would lead to the overthrow of capitalism. Nor do you have any reply when the capitalists overthrown your reforms with a military dictatorship.

In Western Europe, it was only the fact of the USSR that allowed the working classes there to force their governments to accept reforms. Now that the USSR is gone, the welfare states are slowly being dismantled.

5) The mass media dominates our society's channels of information and political discourse for good or ill. Commies will have to find some niche in channeling information to the people, and because you won't be able to do this through the main news media with supportive slant, you will have to rely on the Internet for the most part.

The ruling class always has had a near monopoly on ideology. Granted, it has never been to the extent that modern capitalism has with it's hundreds of channels and airwaves. Nonetheless, the development of the personal computer and the internet allow us to reach many more people than ever before. Internet campaigns can force politics.

Look at the internet campaign last winter over the failure of Congress and the Presidency to do anything about the ending of unemployment for millions. They were embarressed in to acting. The internet allowed for a massive protest campaign against Bush's war. Even though that war happened, millions of millions demonstrated around the world in solidarity. We're just getting started.

Soooo, what are some real reasons that communist revolution aren't likely here. I've actually given this quite considerable thought, as has every political person for the last hundred years.

#1, Wealth. The U.S. is extremely wealthy in natural resources, ingenuity, and productivity. As long as the major food related problem in the U.S. is too much food, people aren't going to feel the need to do whatever it takes to get bread.

#2, Metropole. Despite Marx's belief that socialism must begin in an advanced capitalist society, history shows us that social changes begin at the fringes and move to the center. The U.S. is the center of world capitalism. We've been capitalist from the very begining and it is stronger here than any place else in the world. It is not the strongest link in a chain that breaks. It's the weakest.

#3, Safty valves. In the past, people who were fed up with working for a scumbag capitalist boss could go to the frontier and become a farmer. While the frontier has been closed in the U.S. for a long time, it is much easier for a person to go into business here for themselves. Thus, discontent with the system is channeled into support for the system.


So then, why be a communist in the U.S.? Communists are internationalists. We believe in a world wide struggle for social justice, equality, and rights. That we do not expect to make a revolution here any time soon doesn't mean we can't lead our fellow Americans to support our brothers and sisters around the world. Scratch an anti-war movement and you'll find communists organizing it and leading it.

We are also labor activists. Most of the hardest fighting people in the unions are commies. We also fight for democratic change. Whether its in the Teamsters or the New York Transit workers, the people leading the movement to get rid of the corrupt older guard are commies.

Change happens quickly. In the 1950s, to be a communist was to be a hunted person, hounded from your job, ostracized by friends and family, beaten, imprisoned. Ten years later, communists (of a different stripe), were leading the struggle against racism and war. Ten years ago, there was little movement after the collapse of the left following the rapid victory in the Gulf and the collapse of the USSR. Five years later we had the Battle in Seattle. Three years after that, 9/11 pulled the rug out from underneath us. Two years after that, George Bush's War breathed new life into us.

In 1912, the Bolshevik wing of the Russian socialists was down to fifty members, in a country of over a hundred million people. Lenin dispaired of living to see the revolution. Five years later, he was head of the world's largest country, leading a revolutionary wave that crashed across the world. Only the inexperience of the Western movement "saved" the world from socialist revolution. Five years isn't an awful long time.

[Nubclear]

Re: Re: Why I think a communist revolution is a pipe dream in United States.

Che.

However, a communist revolution in America is still highly unlikely because people percieve communists as evil commie bastards trying to take away their money and freedom.
Until they can be changed of that view and educated, there will be NO chance of a communist revolution in America. It is just that simple.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
chegitz... now you disagree with mr. fun who is re-stating what you said a dozen times? interesting...

He hasn't restated what I said. He just barfed up some common liberal sentiments. Also note that I didn't so much disagree with him as question his motives.

[DinoDoc]

So then, why be a communist in the U.S.?

More importantly, how can you be a communist and work for one of the engines of "bourgeoisie oppression" called Citibank? Huh, che?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

So then, why be a communist in the U.S.?

More importantly, how can you be a communist and work for one of the engines of "bourgeoisie oppression" called Citibank? Huh, che?

Even fat commies like me need to eat (though maybe not so much as I do).

[Ben Kenobi]

2) Believe it or not, religion still seems to have value to varying extents

That must not have tasted good coming up the second time.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Why I think a communist revolution is a pipe dream in United States.

Originally posted by MrFun
3) Most of the working class, along with the middle class, like the idea of earning what they own

The idea of ownship stemmed from scarcity of certain resources. You don't care about owning water or air, because there is such an abundance of them on earth. [This may yet change, but I digress]

That's why Marx thought communism would only be possible in a highly advanced industrial society, because scarcity for most things would be eliminated.

[chequita guevara]

I've never seen that explained so well, UR.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I've never seen that explained so well, UR.

[monkspider]

For Mr Fun, communist revolution can only occur when the gay, Union-leaning proletariot masses defeat the capitalist forces at Vicksburg. God bless President Lincoln.

[Tripledoc]

So if America did turn communist, would it then be the historical responsibility of the Party to spread that revolution around the globe in a Trotskyite quest for world conquest or would they promote a more Stalinist approach, that is merely begin to kill its superfluous citizens first and only then begin to move against the world?