Why I think a communist revolution is a pipe dream in United States.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by skywalker
To quote Imram's sig, "Revolution is the opiate of the intellectuals."

You realize I'm the one who told him that quote. It's from the Peter O'Toole movie, The Ruling Class.

[Kuciwalker]

Doesn't make it any less accurate

[Velociryx]

Ummm, actually Che, the colonial movement began long, LONG before capitalism was even a glimmer in anyone's eye. Back in the day when Europe was filled with....Kings and Queens and such?

Oh sure, there were the beginnings of what you might call "Protocapitalistic experiments" but these were in such formative stages that they bear no resemblance AT ALL to what we recognize today as capitalism.

Further, capitalism does not require or demand a world market. It began small scale, in pockets of Europe, and when it worked, it began spreading by virtue of its immediate, measurable success.

Contrast that with what you propose we do with communism. "Well, it hasn't worked yet, but let's GLOBALIZE it and see what happens!"

How 'bout you get just ONE success under your belt before you start eyeing the rest of the world, eh Comrade?

As to your supposition that the Rockafellers control this country....have you evidence to support this? Some tangible basis for making the claim?

Absolutely, the wealthy use their power to influence. So? To my knowledge, no one from the Rockafeller family ever made tens of millions of people dissappear. I don't know that we've uncovered any mass-graves here in the US of A, people who opposed the Rockafeller's vast wealth and who were put down by that family. If you have a link to something like this though, I'd surely be interested to see it.

And nowhere did I mention some pre-requiste that power needed to be hereditary in order to be bad or corruptive. So Stalin's kids didn't have daddy's power and influence? Did that somehow make Stalin a nice guy?

And the nature of man DOES need to be changed, because yes, the nature of man is adaptability (to a point) - but so long as greed and the lust for power and dominance over others exists within us (and it does), then into any power vaccuum, such a man WILL come. Every time.

If you deny that, then you truly are not living here in the real world with the rest of us.

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
To my knowledge, no one from the Rockafeller family ever made tens of millions of people dissappear. I don't know that we've uncovered any mass-graves here in the US of A, people who opposed the Rockafeller's vast wealth and who were put down by that family. If you have a link to something like this though, I'd surely be interested to see it.

Nazi Germany, most of Latin America in the 1970s, Indonesia, the Philippines, much of Africa, Burma, etc. All capitalist countries, all have diliberately killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in order to preserve the system of private property. When it comes down to it, the Official Communist™ states have nothing on the capitalist world when it comes to mass murder. Every dacade, more people die due to market forces than died in all the Official Communist™ states during their whole history.

I'll deal with the rest of your post later. 'Tis a beautiful day and I don't want to spend the whole day arguing.

[Kuciwalker]

Nazi Germany was fascist. DUH you are going to have problems in an authoritarian country, whether right or left-wing. However, communisms REQUIRES authoritiarianism.

[Velociryx]

Ohhhhh, I get it. So you're going to ignore all the OTHER problems in those countries, and lay the full measure of the blame for every death there on....capitalism.

Never mind the fact that lots of those places have thoroughly corrupt governments who do nothing to build basic infrastructure or set up health care mechanisms for their people. Doesn't matter if the nation(s) in question are mired in a thirty-year civil war. If market forces are present, they MUST BE the only culprit of note.

Amazing.

-=Vel=-

[Lefty Scaevola]

communism does even work around here without violence. We had a communist (farms workers type) party run a county or two south of me for a few years. It collapads in corruption unmatched in even South Texas. The leaders stole everything and would up in jail.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by skywalker
Nazi Germany was fascist.

So, it was still a capitalist country.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Never mind the fact that lots of those places have thoroughly corrupt governments who do nothing to build basic infrastructure or set up health care mechanisms for their people. Doesn't matter if the nation(s) in question are mired in a thirty-year civil war. If market forces are present, they MUST BE the only culprit of note.

Ahhh, okay, capitalist countries get to have excuses for their murderous failures, but Official Communist™ countries are murderous by definition.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Facism usually has an extremme degree of central control of the economy, but differnet objectives of distrubution than communism. It ain't capitalism.

[Velociryx]

Yes Che, when the leader OF the Communist movement personally orders millions to their deaths....that lands squarely on the shoulders of communism.

When market forces happen to be present, right along with a bloody civil war, there's a disconnect between the deaths and the cause you're trying to establish.

It's not rocket science to see this.

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Facism . . . ain't capitalism.

Capitalism is differentiated from all other modes of human organization by private property in the means of production and the exchange of commodities to realize surplus value, i.e., people own things and sell stuff to make money. This was also true in Nazi Germany.

The purpose of fascism is to rescue capitalism. In both Italy and Germany, the unions were crushed, the militants killed, and profitablity restored. Unless you're a Liberatarian, regulation, doesn't negate the existence of capitalism. In any event, even despite the masive regualtion of the rest of society, the capitalists and corporations were relatively untouched. It wasn't until the Nazis were clearly losing the war that they took over running various war industries. Even when they did this they still ensured the companies made profits. When these companies were owned by enemy foreign powers such as Ford, the company's profits were set aside in a eskrow account.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yes Che, when the leader OF the Communist movement personally orders millions to their deaths....that lands squarely on the shoulders of communism.

When market forces happen to be present, right along with a bloody civil war, there's a disconnect between the deaths and the cause you're trying to establish.

And these wars have nothing to do with capitalism.

[JohnT]

... said as he is walking out the door to enjoy this beautiful day, apparently...

[Velociryx]

A good many wars being waged around the globe today are wars of ideology.

Note here, that capitalism is not an ideology.

Given the above....not really, no.

Have there been? Wars fought purely for economic reasons? I'm sure there have, but none spring to my mind immediately.

-=Vel=-