Holocaust and Historiographical Issues

[Ben Kenobi]

(for a discussion of the holocaust and Nazi strategic interests I would again suggest "To mend the world" -sorry if this is sounding repetive, but Fackenheim really does address head on most of the points raised in this thread)

Well, I haven't read the book. Care to dissect the most pertinent point that explains why there is a difference between the 'strategic interests' of the Nazis and between those of the Turks?

Why should one genocide be considered more horrific than another? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Japher
At this juncture I would have to disagree insofarasmuch Nazi Germany's only use for jews was foder where as we used slaves for more than just target practice.

While I would agree with your disagreement that the enslavement of Africans were not similar, I dsagree with your reasoning.

Specifically: Jews and others were used as slave labor to increase the profits of capitalist firms (no labor costs means lots of profit). Their property was used to reward loyal Nazis as well as the Jews' neighbors in conquered countries.

Two: the man credited with inventing the field of gynecology experiemented on his slaves, without using anesthetics, even though they were available in a primative form at the time. He was a forerunner to the experiements of Mengele, only differentiated by the fact that Mengele's experiements were pointless as far as increasing human knowledge was concerned.

After the end of slavery, the murder of Blacks was barely considered a crime in the U.S. for almost 100 years. Perhaps more than ten thousand Black people were murdered for whites entertainment.

The Tuskeegee Experiement. 'Nuff said.

What makes the Holocaust unique is the scale, the speed, and the efficiency of the murder; the fact that it was organized; the fact that a significant portion of the states resources were directed towards genocide; and that its goals were the complete eradication of certain speficic types of indivudals, whereever they could be found, included: Jews, Roma, homosexuals, and the handicapped (both physically and mentally).

While slavery ultimate killed more Africans (at least a third of all Africans died in the Middle Passage) and far more died here in the Americas (with the exception of the U.S., which prefered to create a "breeding stock" rather than just work their slaves to death and buy new ones), and many tens of millions of slaves were imported to the New World. However, it took place over the course of four centuries.

[Ben Kenobi]

What makes the Holocaust unique is the scale, the speed, and the efficiency of the murder; the fact that it was organized; the fact that a significant portion of the states resources were directed towards genocide; and that its goals were the complete eradication of certain speficic types of indivudals, whereever they could be found, included: Jews, Roma, homosexuals, and the handicapped (both physically and mentally).

Cambodia:

1. Complete eradication of certain individuals. (by education)
2. Organised by the state, eg systematic.
3. Efficient, you still cannot find doctors today of a certain age.

So what makes the Jewish holocaust so unique?

[Kropotkin]

It's true that the nazis used the jews as cheap slave labour. However, it's hard to think of it as a rational way of using labour. The slave trade of africans (for example) was based on some sort of rational economic plan. The final solution of the jewish question was not. Germany had plenty of pow's they could use (and did use) as cheap labour. To take millions of civilians away from their everyday, often productive life, and kill them is not really rational at all.

[MrFun]

Interesting thoughts . . .

As Chegitz briefly pointed out the period of the 'nadir of race relations' in United States, which is generally the years 1880s through 1930s, 6,000 to 10,000 blacks were lynched over a period of 50 - 60 years.

In some ways, there are interesting parallels of racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and other forms of systematized extreme hatred that became prevalent in all parts of the world in the early 20th century.


The lynching era of the United States, however, was not on any systematic scale approaching that of genocide in other parts of the world.


And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?
Homosexuals were seen as unfit to live in human society under Nazi rule. That they were inhumanly immoral.
I shudder whenever I see condemnations of homosexuals today, that sound like echoes from era of Nazi Germany.

And the Gypsies -- although they were a smaller group of people than the Jews, didn't they suffer proportionately more than the Jews from the Holocaust?

But again, to what point does it make any sense to make these comparisions -- they were all humans, and they were all killed injusticely, no matter what group they belonged to.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi




Cambodia:

1. Complete eradication of certain individuals. (by education)

You aren't educated by birth. It's something you chose to have. You don't (often) choose to be a Jew or a Roma. Furthermore, they did not try and kill off intellectuals in other countries.

2. Organised by the state, eg systematic.

The widely believed two million deaths mark was a flip comment made by a French journalist in the 1970s, who was in no position to know. It has since come to be accepted as gospel. AFAIK, the only attempt to try and find out how many people died under KR rule was by the CIA, who estimated that about 40,000 were died in the killing fields. The organized killing was actually very small.

Assuming the CIA was wrong, most of the deaths came from starvation. The starvation was caused by people by lowered productivity, which occured when the US bombed the bejeezuz out of Cambodia in the early 1970s and Cambodea went from an grain exporting country to a grain importing one. This led to the instability which enabled the KR to topple Lon Nol (Sihanok having been overthrown by LN). Factor in the complete stupidity of cutting yourself off from the outside world and you have a great recipe for famine.

3. Efficient, you still cannot find doctors today of a certain age.

Not efficient. They determined who was or was not an intellectual by looking at their hands or if they had eye glasses.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Well, I haven't read the book. Care to dissect the most pertinent point that explains why there is a difference between the 'strategic interests' of the Nazis and between those of the Turks?

Why should one genocide be considered more horrific than another? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

i dont have it handy, and i dont trust myself to rephrase it anyway. The essential point is that the Nazis pursued their policiy well past the point were it was any benefit to them. IIRC correctly, Hitler in his last will and testament denounced the Germans for not killing more Jews. I'll try to get the quote.

[lord of the mark]

Re: educated cambodians, Roma, German gays


1. As Guevera said, education is not something youre born with. While it certainly isnt a choice ONCE the genocide starts, its not quite the same thing.

2. Gays -well, we may be learning now that it IS something youre born with, nobody thought so in the 1930's.

And were any non-German gays murdered? Polish gays? Italian gays? Hungarians? see below re roma

3. the extermination of the Roma by the Nazis comes as close to the extermination of the Jews as any event in history, and I admit to feeling uncomfortable making a distinction. If you say that it is equivalent to the Jewish holocaust I wont make a fuss. But I will point out that the argument HAS been made that it is still different in this respect - the Nazis killed the Roma they knew about in the places they ruled. They want beyond this for the Jews. For example they famously pressured the fascist regimes in Italy and Hungary to turn over their Jews to the Germans, against the will of those two governments. To my knowledge they did not do the same with respect to Italian or Hungarian Roma. They searched for hidden Jews, attempting to pass as gentiles. I am not aware of similar efforts wrt Roma. And they made the persecution of Jews central to their regime and its ideology, in a way they did not do wrt Roma.

[lord of the mark]

hitlers political testament

http://www.auschwitz.dk/Will.htm

Note that it is largely a rant against the Jews. And his final words to the German people are an injunction to enforce the racial laws against world jewry.

does one imagine enver pasha ranting against the armenians on his death bed?

[chequita guevara]

The extermination of homosexuals and the handicapped were specifically from Germans, as part of their attempt to make the German people "clean."

I do believe they tried to force their allies to hand over the Roma to them.

[MrFun]

I would appreciate more thoughts from my last post . . .

[Japher]

MrFun wants attention, so I, like a good wipping boy:

MrFun, you mainly just stated some nice facts that show that while US genocide occured over a longer period of time that it was the speed at which the Nazi regime did what they did and also how a hatred for one "race" was spread to all corners of the world.

And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?
Homosexuals were seen as unfit to live in human society under Nazi rule. That they were inhumanly immoral.
I shudder whenever I see condemnations of homosexuals today, that sound like echoes from era of Nazi Germany.

You are such an attention whore aren't you?

And the Gypsies -- although they were a smaller group of people than the Jews, didn't they suffer proportionately more than the Jews from the Holocaust?

Aren't the gypsies Russian Jews, or am I thinking of some other class?

But again, to what point does it make any sense to make these comparisions -- they were all humans, and they were all killed injusticely, no matter what group they belonged to.

If one wants to address genocide then this is the approach you take. If one wants to address the Holocost that occured in Nazi era Germany one should not do so by comparing it to other acts of extreme prejudice either to make it bigger than life or less important. Doing so would seemingly either increase or decrease the value of jewish lives when compared to the lives of africans, russians, serbs, or what-have-you... Next time your teacher starts debasing or demphisizing the holocost on the grand scheme of genocide you tell him that.

[Az]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Actually, I'm on the jew's side in most things - like Israel v Pals for example.

Is it because we're whiter?

[Japher]

Is it because we're whiter?

That, and you usually don't attack the other within a week of peace talks... Oh, and Arafat was just a more manly name than Sharon.

[chequita guevara]

Re: MrFun wants attention, so I, like a good wipping boy:

Originally posted by Japher
Aren't the gypsies Russian Jews, or am I thinking of some other class?

Uh, no. The Gypsies (properly called Roma) are the decendents of a group of travellers from (best guess) India who entered Europe in the Middle Ages. The name Gypsie comes from the belief that they originated from Egypt, but their language is related to several Indian languages. The words gyp and gypped are derived from Gypsie and come from the fact that they often swindled people.

They are particularly loathed in Europe, and people over here ain't too fond of them either. This isn't just because they are outsiders, but also because they have a tendency to be criminals. I admit that I haven't done much research, but I haven't watched or read anything about the Roma that indicated they lived "normally."

Take that as you will. I've never met anyone who admitted to being a Roma, and the two times I know of people encountering them was when they were robbing people.