Holocaust and Historiographical Issues

[Gangerolf]

I repeat: "OK I'm exaggerating here but I think there's some truth to it." Maybe I should have said "Israel supporters" instead of "Israel".

I didn't mean to say that the Israeli government has used or uses this kind of rhetoric. What I'm saying is that some of Israel's supporters have hinted towards the holocaust to gain sympathy.

As for Begin, even though he never openly used the holocaust to justify violence etc, by bringing up the subject in his speaches planted the thought in the world opinion if you know what I mean.

[lord of the mark]

what you seem to be saying is that more attention was given to the holocaust in academia, US media, etc after 1967 (vs the 1950s') in order to justify Israeli actions against the Pals.

I think that assertion is both false and despicable.

[Gangerolf]

The holocaust is a golden pathos argument and I don't think it's so shocking to think that pro-Israel lobbyists/PR people/media etc have been thinking the same. Hell, they would be stupid if they didn't.

[Kropotkin]

Well, I think its fair to say that some individuals and organizations have used the holocaust in that way from time to time. On the other hand, to take a different point than cali, the holocaust is a big deal in Sweden. This is a country with a very small jewish minority (something like 10,000 iirc) and with a different (on average) perspective on the situation in Israel/Palestine than the US has.

[Ned]

The thing about the Holocaust that is unique is that it was a genocide based on pure racism. The more we fought World War II, the more we began to realize that the war against Nazi Germany was not just a war against fascism, but a war against racism. That war transformed America, and probably other countries in the world as well, from being a nation where racism was a given to a nation where racism was considered evil. Where before the war, blacks were considered subhuman by many if not most Americans and were therefore acceptable targets of discrimination, after the war a great many Americans began to battle racism here in United States. Our reaction to Holocaust led to an end of discrimination in the Armed Forces. That led to Brown v. Board of Education and to the end of "separate but equal." It also led to civil rights legislation in United States and to affirmative action which have substantially eradicated racism here. The Holocaust was central to changing America's and hopefully the world's thinking on racial issues.

This is why I believe that there is a link between the Holocaust and the treatment of blacks in America. Both were based on racism and both were evil.

[Kropotkin]

Racism in the armed forces? My ass! It's a well known scientific fact that negros lacks night vision.

[MrFun]

I'm responding to different posts here, but . . .

the Holocaust SHOULD be taken seriously by everyone who has a sense of respect for human dignity and justice.


Also, what are the important differences in the scholarly studies of the Holocaust between the Jewish intellectual communities of United States, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and Israel??

Some have already discussed Israel in this aspect, but what about the other Jewish communities of the world, and their persepctive?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MrFun
I'm responding to different posts here, but . . .

the Holocaust SHOULD be taken seriously by everyone who has a sense of respect for human dignity and justice.


Also, what are the important differences in the scholarly studies of the Holocaust between the Jewish intellectual communities of United States, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and Israel??

Some have already discussed Israel in this aspect, but what about the other Jewish communities of the world, and their persepctive?

Uh, unfortunately there ARE no important Jewish communities in eastern europe

I cant speak to historical studies, but certainly in terms of philosphical and theological responses the dialogue trancends national boundaries. Fackenheim for example taught in both Canada and Israel. Wiesel teaches in the US, but writes in French. AFAIK theres less straight history on the topic done by Jews in western europe than philosophy (I suppose largely because of the greater focus of all French intellectuals, Jew and Gentile, on philosophy rather than history - if youre a French historian youre supposed to focus on local economic history, I suppose) Im not sure of any particular differences between Israeli and American Jewish historians, except I know one Israeli historian (whose name escapes me at the moment) wrote a one vol history of the holocaust that was much more critical of Orthodox religion then anything Ive seen written in the US.

[Kropotkin]

Diffrences (if any) has to be divided into two questions. First there's the question of empirical studies. In other words; what sources are used in order to investigate the holocaust etcetra. Second, there's the question of interpetation of historical facts. As far as I've heard, there's no major diffrences between people from different communities in the first question. Even if their results might differ somewhat. The holocaust happened; end of story. In the second question - and here we have such fields as philosophy and the current debate here about in what ways the holocaust is unique or not - the debate differs quite a lot depending on who's talking. For obvious reasons the holocaust means different things for some that's part of a german community than for someone that's part of a jewish community. In this particular perspective the essence of the holocaust is relative.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


they may have been nationalistic (notably towards Poles ) but this does not mean they inclined towards mass murder. Even Daniel Goldhagen, who claims (in his controversial "Ordinary Germans" ) that "exterminationist antisemitism" was part of pre-Nazi German culture, essentially discusses the situation during the 1920's, NOT pre-1914.

I've read something about a revolt in one german colony in Africa. guess what Germans did with the tribe.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by Heresson


I've read something about a revolt in one german colony in Africa. guess what Germans did with the tribe.

The Herero genocide in Namibia, 1904-1907:

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_namibia1.html

Of a population of 80000, 80% were killed. Add to that about half of the Nama people.

I would say there were plenty of early indicators as to where Germany was headed, without saying at all that it was an inevitability.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Really? I wonder why that was? Perhaps victim status wasn't as desirable back then as it is now.

OTOH it may be that Jews were still reviled in American society and felt that they couldn't afford to risk the possibility that overpublicizing the Holocaust might actually increase anti-semitic sentiments. I was in grade school in the 1950s. I remember that in those days people would use the word "Jew" as a perjorative without shame. Everyone knew that to be cheated was to be "jewed". In my school certain groups were allowed to leave early on friday for religious reasons. This included Jews and Catholics, who would go from their public school to their church or synagogue schools on Friday afternoon. The fact that some of the kids who were getting up and leaving on Friday afternoons were Jewish wasn't mentioned, they were lumped in with the Catholic group to avoid drawing attention to them. In the 1950s also there were still places, like country clubs, that discriminated against Jews.
Things have changed alot in American society over the past 40 years.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kitschum


The Herero genocide in Namibia, 1904-1907:

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_namibia1.html

Of a population of 80000, 80% were killed. Add to that about half of the Nama people.

I would say there were plenty of early indicators as to where Germany was headed, without saying at all that it was an inevitability.

By the same reasoning you could say that Belgium was headed down that road.

While the argument might be made that Congo was not an official colony of Belgium at the time, I doubt very much that "ordinary Germans" had any more idea of what was going on in Namibia than Belgians did what was going on in the Congo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

Things have changed alot in American society over the past 40 years.

Yes they have. G-d bless America!

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


By the same reasoning you could say that Belgium was headed down that road.

Perhaps it did, but didn't have any chance to prove it