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Marxist's Apartment A Microcosm of why Marxism Doesn't Work

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  • Che, I assume you approve of unions in communist countries that are run by the communist party. Right? But what about independent unions, so-called "free" unions. What is your opinion of Lech Walesa?

    "Lech Walesa, the fly, feisty, mustachioed electrician from Gdansk, shaped the 20th century as the leader of the Solidarity movement that led the Poles out of communism. It is one of history's great ironies that the nearest thing we have ever seen to a genuine workers' revolution was directed against a so-called workers' state. Poland was again the icebreaker for the rest of Central Europe in the "velvet revolutions" of 1989. Walesa's contribution to the end of communism in Europe, and hence the end of the cold war, stands beside those of his fellow Pole, Pope John Paul II, and the Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev.

    Walesa's life, like those of Gorbachev and the Pope, was shaped by communism. Born to a family of peasant farmers in 1943, he came as a young man to work in the vast shipyards that the communist state was developing on the Baltic coast, as did so many other peasant sons. A devout Roman Catholic, he was shocked by the repression of workers' protests in the 1970s and made contact with small opposition groups. Sacked from his job, he nonetheless climbed over the perimeter wall of the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk in August 1980, at age 37, to join the occupation strike. With his electrifying personality, quick wit and gift of the gab, he was soon leading it. He moved his fellow workers away from mere wage claims and toward a central, daringly political demand: free trade unions.

    When the Polish communists made this concession, which was without precedent in the history of the communist world since 1917, the new union was christened Solidarnosc (Solidarity). Soon it had 10 million members, and Walesa was its undisputed leader. For 16 months they struggled to find a way to coexist with the communist state, under the constant threat of Soviet invasion. Walesa--known to almost everyone simply as Lech--was foxy, unpredictable, often infuriating, but he had a natural genius for politics, a matchless ability for sensing popular moods, and great powers of swaying a crowd. Again and again, he used these powers for moderation. He jokingly described himself as a "fireman," dousing the flames of popular discontent. In the end, martial law was declared. Walesa was interned for 11 months and then released.

    Yet Solidarity would not die, and Walesa remained its symbol. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983. With support from the Pope and the U.S., he and his colleagues in the underground leadership of Solidarity kept the flame alight, until the advent of Mikhail Gorbachev in the Kremlin brought new hope. In 1988 there was another occupation strike in the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk, which Walesa again joined--though this time as the grand old man among younger workers. A few months later, the Polish communists entered into negotiations with Solidarity, at the first Round Table of 1989. Walesa and his colleagues secured semifree elections in which Solidarity proceeded to triumph. In August, just nine years after he had climbed over the shipyard wall, Poland got its first non-communist Prime Minister in more than 40 years. Where Poland led, the rest of Central Europe soon followed--and the Soviet Union was not far behind.

    The next phase in Walesa's political career was more controversial. Angered by the fact that his former intellectual advisers were now running the country in cooperation with the former communists, he declared a "war at the top" of Solidarity. "I don't want to, but I must," he insisted. Fighting a populist campaign against his own former adviser, he was elected Poland's first noncommunist President, a post he held until 1995. Some people liked his stalwart, outspoken style. Others found him too undignified to be the new democracy's head of state. Brilliant as a people's tribune, he stumbled over long formal speeches. You never felt he was quite comfortable in the role. When he stayed with the British Queen at Windsor Castle, he characteristically quipped that the bed was so big, he couldn't find his wife.

    Politically, he was also erratic. As Poland was struggling to be accepted into NATO, he suddenly proposed a "NATO bis," a shadowy "second NATO" for those in waiting. Not for the first time, his colleagues put their heads in their hands. His closest adviser was his former chauffeur, with whom he played long games of table tennis. He developed close links with the military and security services. His critics accused him of being authoritarian, a "President with an ax." In another historical irony, he was defeated by a former communist, Aleksander Kwasniewski. Walesa went back to Gdansk, to his villa, his wife Danuta and their eight children. But at 54 he is still young, and he recently announced the formation of his own political party. Like Gorbachev, he finds it very difficult to accept that he has become a historical figure rather than a politician with serious chances.

    Walesa is a phenomenon. Still mustachioed but thickset now, he stands for many values that in the West might be thought conservative. Fierce patriotism ("nationalism," say his critics), strong Catholic views, the family. He's a fighter, of course. But he's also mercurial, unpredictable--and a consummate politician. He is an example of someone who was magnificent in the struggle for freedom but less so in more normal times, when freedom was won and the task was to consolidate a stable, law-abiding democracy. For all his presidential airs, he still retains something of the old Lech, the working-class wag and chancer that his friends remember from the early days. But no one can deny him his place in history.

    Without Walesa, the occupation strike in the Lenin Shipyard might never have taken off. Without him, Solidarity might never have been born. Without him, it might not have survived martial law and come back triumphantly to negotiate the transition from communism to democracy. And without the Polish icebreaking, Eastern Europe might still be frozen in a Soviet sphere of influence, and the world would be a very different place. With all Walesa's personal faults, his legacy is a huge gain in freedom, not just for the Poles. His services were, as an old Polish slogan has it, "for our freedom--and yours."

    Oxford historian and author Timothy Garton Ash wrote The Polish Revolution: Solidarity"

    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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    • Walesa was a CIA stooge. Solidarity was a good thing while it was still independent, but the CIA and the Catholic Church took over and changed it from a socialist union to an anti-communist union.

      In the begining, Solidarity wanted to reform and democratize socialism in Poland. This would have been a great thing, but it was dangerous not only to the Eastern Bloc, but the West as well. Neither side wanted to see a democratic socialist state, as it would show the USSR for the sham it was and it would show the West that there was another way.

      Nonetheless, I always supported Solidarity, at least until it became a political party.
      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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      • Che, I applaud you for supporting free trade unions. I assume from this that you would denouce sham trade unions that are fronts for other interests, such as the government or mafia or the like, and who really do not represent the workers.
        http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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        • Originally posted by Ned
          I assume from this that you would denouce sham trade unions that are fronts for other interests, such as the government or mafia or the like, and who really do not represent the workers.
          One doesn't denounce mob run unions if one knows what's good for one.

          Revolutionaries, such as myself, try to fight union corruption. We build and support efforts such as Teamsters for a Democratic Union and New Directions in the Autoworkers and Steelworkers to break the hold of the old guard bureaucracy and mob and restore the unions to their rightful owners. In other countries, we sometimes build alternative unions alongside corrupt or government unions.

          It took almost twenty years in the Teamsters, but TDU was finally able to force the government to step in and get the mob out. The reality is, however, the the government snatched victory from TDU, and stepped in because TDU was successful, and the Fed's absolutely did not want a Red run Teamsters. The only way to head us off was to remove the impetus, mob control. Regardless, the result for the rank and file was they got their union back, and for a time, it was even working for them.

          Since Hoffa Jr was handed the leadership of the Teamsters, however, things have declined. The landmark UPS victory has evaporated as UPS has violated the contract all over the place, while the union has sat on its hands and done nothing. This is because the former head, Ron Carey, was implicated (though never charged) in coruption. Several higher ups recycled union money from the union, through the Democratic Party, into Carey's election campaign. Despite the fact that all guilty parties have denied Carey was involved, Carey has been bared from holding office in the union, which meant that no real opposition existed to the mob and old guard's candidate, Hoffa Jr.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Berzerker
            You can't disconnect what is inherent to being human from the economic systems devised by humans, unless of course people don't have the wealth to be charitable (communism) or they are punished for being charitable. Capitalism allows for charity by allowing people to accumulate wealth and allowing them to give it away.
            That's not the point. Charity is not a consequence of capitalism. Having charities inside a capitalistic society is not a valid redress for the massive inequalities that is a result of capitalism. The society as a whole has a moral resposibility to help its most disadvantaged group.

            Charities are not needed under communism because there will not be any disadvantaged group.
            (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
            (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
            (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

            Comment


            • Charities are not needed under communism because there will not be any disadvantaged group.


              /me looks up word 'Kulak' in encyclopedia.
              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ned
                Communist solution: Use the whip or deny perks. (Punishment)
                Capitalist solution: Pay bonus for every widget produced above 1000. (Rewards)

                Observation, both systems work to increase production, but the worker is happier under the capitalist system.
                This conclusion flies in the face of almost all OB (organisational behaviour) studies, which tries to find out how to improve workers' productivity.

                The idea that a worker can be made to perform better was found to have no basis in fact by the Hawthorne Studies performed by Elton Mayo.
                (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                  That's not the point. Charity is not a consequence of capitalism. Having charities inside a capitalistic society is not a valid redress for the massive inequalities that is a result of capitalism. The society as a whole has a moral resposibility to help its most disadvantaged group.

                  Charities are not needed under communism because there will not be any disadvantaged group.
                  UR, I have no fundamental disaggrement with this. As I have said before, the "redress" has to be in the form of providing a solid base of education for every citizen, equal opportunity in acedemia and the workplace through careful civil rights legislation, a social safety net to catch those who stumble, and social security for the elderly.

                  What the far left wants to do is more than this - it wants to play Robin Hood and steal from the rich and give to the poor; it wants steeply progressive taxation to eliminate the accumulation of wealth; it wants oppressive estate tax laws to prevent the passing on of wealth; it wants to own or intrusively regulate all aspects of big business. The bottom line, the left hates wealth and does everything in its power to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
                  http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                    This conclusion flies in the face of almost all OB (organisational behaviour) studies, which tries to find out how to improve workers' productivity.

                    The idea that a worker can be made to perform better was found to have no basis in fact by the Hawthorne Studies performed by Elton Mayo.
                    Tell us more about those studies.
                    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                      * Ben Kenobi looks up word 'Kulak' in encyclopedia.
                      1) The Kulaks were an advantaged group.

                      2) The fact that the society was ruled by a Communist Party doesn't make it a communist society. At the time, the USSR had heavily regulated capitalism, and they were transitioning to socialism.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ned
                        Tell us more about those studies.
                        Try this link

                        He highlighted the importance of communication between management and the workers and identified the now accepted notion, that work satisfaction lay in recognition, security, and sense of belonging, rather than monetary rewards.
                        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ned
                          What the far left wants to do is more than this - it wants to play Robin Hood and steal from the rich and give to the poor
                          The thing about the rich is they got that way via established social mechanisms. Hence, the society as a whole can decide they don't want these mechanisms anymore, or to at least place restrictions on them.
                          (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                          (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                          (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                          Comment


                          • che:

                            They weren't under the Communists.

                            2) The fact that the society was ruled by a Communist Party doesn't make it a communist society. At the time, the USSR had heavily regulated capitalism, and they were transitioning to socialism


                            So theoretically, there should be no need for charities under communism, just like theoretically the state will eventually disappear.

                            Define for me a 'communist' state.

                            What about North Korea who needs free food to feed the people?
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                              Define for me a 'communist' state.
                              A state that follows the distributive justice of communism.

                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                              What about North Korea who needs free food to feed the people?
                              A party that's called "communist" can be just in name only. Like the Republicans and Democrats.
                              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                                The thing about the rich is they got that way via established social mechanisms. Hence, the society as a whole can decide they don't want these mechanisms anymore, or to at least place restrictions on them.
                                Democracy was born when two voted to take the land of a third after he had improved it and made it fertile.

                                The politics of envy is enormously destructive and immoral.
                                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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