Marxist's Apartment A Microcosm of why Marxism Doesn't Work

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Let's compare to reality where we actually have a social safety net in capitalist societies. It is not work or starve. It is work hard and do well. Work harder and become rich.

In communist societies, it is work or else. Work harder and you are stupid.

Actually it's very often the opposite. People who do very well at a job (work hard whatever) usually stay at that job. That's efficient anyway. They may get small raises but they don't become rich. They just get exploited more. So really you are stupid to work hard at your job. The key is to work smart if you don't want to be exploited. You want to show your boss that you are much more valuable moving up the latter than you are working at the bottom. The bottom is where everyone works hard, and don't get sh1t for it.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Oh, and all those millions of people starvnig to death every year in the capitalist 3rd world are really not starving to death? Sorry Charlie, but you don't get to pick only the imperialist countries to show how great capitalism is. You have to take the colonial and neo-colonial world too. Millions of people starve to death every year in the capitalist world, all because the holy market has no use for them.

I was unaware that the third world had capitalist societies. I thought they all had socialist societies of one extremity or the other.

[Ben Kenobi]

People who do very well at a job (work hard whatever) usually stay at that job. That's efficient anyway. They may get small raises but they don't become rich. They just get exploited more. So really you are stupid to work hard at your job.

What if you love your job, Kidicious?

You assume that the only motivations for working are for material benefits, and that is just not so!

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Ned


I was unaware that the third world had capitalist societies. I thought they all had socialist societies of one extremity or the other.

Chile, Peru, and Bolivia are all countries that are far more neoliberal than the US. In fact I would dare say that any politician in the US that ran on a platform of reducing government regulations to Peruvian levels would lose in a landslide - even in a heavily deregulatory state like Texas.

[Ned]

Example:

Job: produce widget.
Normal production: 1000 per day per worker.
Objective: Increase production

Communist solution: Use the whip or deny perks. (Punishment)
Capitalist solution: Pay bonus for every widget produced above 1000. (Rewards)

Observation, both systems work to increase production, but the worker is happier under the capitalist system.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Ned
Example:

Job: produce widget.
Normal production: 1000 per day per worker.
Objective: Increase production

Communist solution: Use the whip or deny perks. (Punishment)
Capitalist solution: Pay bonus for every widget produced above 1000. (Rewards)

Observation, both systems work to increase production, but the worker is happier under the capitalist system.

More likely -

Captialist solution: threaten to fire non-unionized workers who do not meet quota.

Just a different sort of whip.

[chequita guevara]

I would suggest that Ned hasn't worked in a real job in a capitalist country before when they decide to increase production. Generally here's how it works, "work faster or be fired." Ever hear of speed-ups?

When I worked at UPS in 1989, they increased the number of packages we had to move by ten percent (IIRC). UPS workers didn't get a pay increase until 1996, and at the time hadn't had one since the early 1980s. The only incentive was avoiding being fired. At the time of he speed-up, the union was still under the control of the mob, so we couldn't fight the speed-up either.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
work or starve is a natural "punishment", work or be sent to the gulag is not.

It most certainly is not, since there is no such thing as a "natural punishment". I mean, if there is then beating someone to death with a club would surely qualify, as that was "natural" to our ancestors.

[monolith94]

"And who expects a bunch of students to be able to organize anything useful other than beer blasts and wet T-shirt contests?"

So beer blasts and wet T-shirt contests are useful?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by monolith94
"And who expects a bunch of students to be able to organize anything useful other than beer blasts and wet T-shirt contests?"

So beer blasts and wet T-shirt contests are useful?

god damn yes. well the latter atleast.

[SKILORD]

What he means is an effect to a cause which you put into motion, not imposed by your brother man.

[:) Smiley]

Communism is not without rewards, those who perform well do get recognition and promotion. There are not so many material rewards though.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by SKILORD
What he means is an effect to a cause which you put into motion, not imposed by your brother man.

Really, so if I starve someone to death, it is starvation that kills them and not me.

What about negligence?

You really don't want to go down this road.

[Odin]

Reagan not allowing airline employees to strike is an example of the evils of capitalism. Capitalism would fall if we would get rid of thiese fascist regulations against strikers.

Che, what do you mean that your union was controlled by the mob?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Odin
Che, what do you mean that your union was controlled by the mob?

After Jimmy Hoffa went to jail, the Mafia took control of the Teamsters and more or less remained in control until the early 1990s, when the US government took control of the union (more or less). At the time I was in the union, being a worker militant could literally get you killed (I met one guy who had almost been shot in the head when the police pulled up and saved his life). There are still quite a few old guard mob bosses in the Teamsters, and with Hoffa Jr in charge, they're feeling their oats again after being on the defensive for a decade.

Several unions are still mob controlled. IIRC, the fish handlers in NYC are mob controled. The train workers union in Chicago is mob controled. There another union in Chicago that's mob run. Bascially the mob uses pension funds to fund illegal schemes and the workers get left with nothing. Bosses get compliant workers, also, as the mob will hurt or kill workers who get uppity.

In the Teamsters and elsewhere, they seized control by driving out the militants (commies and union activists) of the union structure. This happened during the late 40s through the early 60s, during the period of McCarthyism, and the Feds turned a blind eye because it helped break the power of the Reds. Anyway, without any opposition, the mob would change the by laws, so that the President of the union would appoint the delegates, and the delagates would appoint the President. So the rank and file had no say in who their union leaders were.