prove to me that communism isn't immoral as heck

[JCG]

I think that the road to communism has proven to be much more "immoral as heck" than communism itself (even if you choose to subscribe to the "we haven't seen true communism" argument, that doesn't change the above).....

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Society is slavery. I wanted to be born into a society where I could walk up to a Senator and repeatedly slap him with a banana. But did I get in that society? No! I was forced into this one!

AFAIK you can do it.
They sometimes even reward you for doing it by taking you to a place where you don´t have to work and even get clothes and food for free

[Drogue]

Originally posted by St Leo
Swedish free market forever.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by skywalker
"To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability." That was actually what made me realize communism is slavery.

Yeah, it's no joy. Only someone with a protestant work ethic could possibly like communism.

[chequita guevara]

Of course it's immoral. We are Godless after all.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by skywalker
"To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability." That was actually what made me realize communism is slavery.

What about the individual that has great ability and little need? What would the commies call him, if not a slave, under this ludicrous statement.

Communism could only posiibly work when everyone's abilities and needs are fairly equal. Beyond that and it becomes exploitation of some and welfare for others. Two different types of the same thing...slavery.

[Dis]

you are correct sir. communism is immoral.

As far left as I strive to be, I will never waiver from my capitalist tendencies. It is easily the best economic system available today.

[mrmitchell]

As far left as I strive to be, I will never waiver from my capitalist tendencies. It is easily the best economic system available today.

I did a quick tally of it for today's Rant of the Day (you know, that annoying link in my sig) and no matter what good Communism does, it lacks the "free market" one has in capitalism.

[GePap]

Originally posted by PLATO


What about the individual that has great ability and little need? What would the commies call him, if not a slave, under this ludicrous statement.

Communism could only posiibly work when everyone's abilities and needs are fairly equal. Beyond that and it becomes exploitation of some and welfare for others. Two different types of the same thing...slavery.

This assume anyone's labor is necessary for the creaiton of basic needs. There is a reason Marx states only at the most advanced level of capitalism can communism come into being: you need an immense productive economy so that the needs of everyon can be met free of this issue. To use a bad exmaple, look at Star Trek. Could the capitalist system survive cheap near-limitsless energy, near full auto mation of industry, so forth and so on? There are ery few industries and sectors were full automation is impossible: and those fields ususally pay squat.

So the fact is, until we reach the most adavnced form of capitalism, one of Marx's most basic claims can;t be dealt with.

[Theben]

Originally posted by GePap


This assume anyone's labor is necessary for the creaiton of basic needs. There is a reason Marx states only at the most advanced level of capitalism can communism come into being: you need an immense productive economy so that the needs of everyon can be met free of this issue. To use a bad exmaple, look at Star Trek. Could the capitalist system survive cheap near-limitsless energy, near full auto mation of industry, so forth and so on? There are ery few industries and sectors were full automation is impossible: and those fields ususally pay squat.

So the fact is, until we reach the most adavnced form of capitalism, one of Marx's most basic claims can;t be dealt with.

Which is why capitalism has built-in safeguards against such an occurrence; minimum unemployment levels and inflation, for starters.

You also assume greed has it's limits.

[PLATO]

Well I suppose we can look forward to the "Star Trek" days, but until then I think communism is grossly unfair and ultimately unsustainable.

In a scenario of limitless energy and machines making the machines that make the stuff we want then the above statement still does not pan out. Consider, rather, "To each according to their wants, from each according to their desire". If we are talking utopian theory then why not?

[GePap]

"Desires"? why desires? People invariably want more than they have, in fact, usually more than they can get under their current life. Desire is a fine endless line to unhappiness. The Buddhist are right when it comes to desire.

[Odin]

The only reason capitalism works in the US is because we are a wasteful, materialistic society, we are bombarded by ads telling us to buy things we don't really need. Get rid of crap ads and you kill capitalism as we know it in the US. In a communist society people buy luxury goods, say a civ game, because it really is fun, we won't have the "Infrogreed lying to the consumer" BS we have now. Basically capitalism works because it creates false needs. This is why I think the "unlimited wants" doctrine of economics is bunk, the reason people have so many wants is because capitalism creates this situation via advertisement.

The main premise of my idea of communism is economic democracy, the economy is controled by ELECTED officials, not rich bigwigs. Luxury goods are sold by worker-run co-ops. Workers will also be paid more for less work because there will be no surpluses goods to drive down wages, and the amount of time people have to work for the same amount of money will decrease as technology gets more efficent. The main problem is that communism must be global, otherwise capitalist countries will use thier millitary to do the bidding of thier corporate masters and get in the way of progress (like when the US put in Pinochet in Chile because that contry had just elected a socialist).

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[Dis]

capitalism did very well in the 18th century. and there was very little advertisement compared to what we have today- which is a near endless bombardment of advertisements.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Dissident
capitalism did very well in the 18th century. and there was very little advertisement compared to what we have today- which is a near endless bombardment of advertisements.

That was because it was the beginning of the industrial revolution, you need capitalism to develop the country before you go socialist, Capitalism has done it's job in the developed world, it is no longer needed. That is why the USSR went to heck, they went communist before they were developed enough, hence when it comes to the Russian Civil War I actually would of sided with the menshiviks (the "social democrats" of the period).