prove to me that communism isn't immoral as heck

[Verto]

Re: prove to me that communism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by skywalker
prove to me that communism isn't immoral as heck

Just look at the people who support it.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: prove to me that capitalism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by SKILORD
Capitalism in Ideal at least states thast all men should be paid according to the work which they accomplish

If that's the case, how does the boss make money?

Originally posted by SKILORD
In practicality the lack of a Union system in the third world is the only thing that allows them to be raped by american corporations.

You mean workers in the US aren't getting the shaft?

[SKILORD]

How are workers in the US getting the shaft? Perhaps we have leess jobs now... because the third world has no unions and because our government is tax-crazy, but I cannot see where wer're getting shafted.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: prove to me that capitalism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by SKILORD
Capitalism in Ideal at least states thast all men should be paid according to the work which they accomplish

Where does capitalism state that?

[Curiosity]

Re: Re: prove to me that capitalism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by SKILORD
Capitalism in Ideal at least states thast all men should be paid according to the work which they accomplish

Capitalism 'states', if anything, that everyone should be free to amass wealth by whatever non-coercive means they can. By implication, that means that people will be payed as little as their bosses can manage while keeping their workforce.

wheras Communism, in Ideal, states that you should work for the good of your brothers while ensuring that no man exceeds you.

Again I must disagree. Communism states that no-one should be able to live a life of luxury without working simply by amassing a great deal of capital. It is not necessary for everyone to be equal, just for them to be unable to live purely from the labour of others.

In some respects this is actually closer to your idea of capitalism than the reality of capitalism. Of course you could argue that 'capitalist'society today is broadly communist...

[SKILORD]

Re: Re: Re: prove to me that capitalism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Where does capitalism state that?

Well, we lack a proper manifesto, but the basics of capitalism are, as Curiosity pointed out, to amass as much wealth as possible through noncoercive ends.

If the workers are opressed they strike, or perform any number of measures intended to end the opression. The Corporations need them and will pay them more (theoretically at least) to keep them. They could also hire scabs but unless unemployment is up scabs can be hard to find.

-

By implication, that means that people will be payed as little as their bosses can manage while keeping their workforce.

Does this mean that we should punish the thrifty? If the workforce is willing to accept the pay, then what is wrong with it?

Again I must disagree. Communism states that no-one should be able to live a life of luxury without working simply by amassing a great deal of capital. It is not necessary for everyone to be equal, just for them to be unable to live purely from the labour of others.

Amassing a great deal of capital is simple? I hardly seem to think so. If it were so simple as you paint it I doubt that we would ever have heard of Marx.

Few CEO's (Overpaid b*stards though they may be, but if they want to rip off their own company that's their agenda) do no work for themselves. Do you think that there is be noone who keeps things running under Communism? Are there not managers who perform less physical labor? Does the Premier work in the mines?

[Curiosity]

SKI,

Does this mean that we should punish the thrifty? If the workforce is willing to accept the pay, then what is wrong with it?

Often nothing. For a skilled workforce and a market where labour is rare it works well.
However, unions are only practical where you have a stable job and a reasonable number of employees who cannot be easily replaced. Otherwise the theoretical 'value' of a person's labour can well fall below the point at which they are able to survive. That's why all developed nations have some sort of protection for the lowest-paid, however capitalist they may declare themselves to be.
Unions without any legal restraint can be just as bad, of course.

Amassing a great deal of capital is simple? I hardly seem to think so. If it were so simple as you paint it I doubt that we would ever have heard of Marx.

I didn't say it was simple. I said 'simply by', i.e. with no other necessity.
Sometimes it is simple: you inherit wealth, for example. I'm living off my capital right now, and it's quite a nice lifestyle. I'll stop after I leave university, though.

CEO's are not the issue, btw. Few CEOs actually own the companies they manage these days. The issue is with someone who has a million shares in Xerox and no need to ever contribute further to society. They may consume vast amounts of resources and give nothing back.

To my mind there are worse problems in capitalism, especially when entrenched interests attempt to hold back progress. See, forex, the RIAA attempting to keep music 'physical', advertising determining that an inferior product wins over a superior one, the timber industry campaigning against hemp fiber.

Unfortunately, to quote Marx very roughly, 'the technology determines the society'. But we still don't really know what sort of society the information age makes possible...

[SKILORD]

especially when entrenched interests attempt to hold back progress.

lmao.

If you think this is not far worse in communism then you are naieve and foolish.

[Deity Dude]

Re: prove to me that communism isn't immoral as heck

Originally posted by skywalker

Communism is immoral, because it is slavery. I produce a commodity, my labor. I sell that commodity in exchange for money. If you require that I give that money to other people who have less money, then you are really requiring me to give my labor, without compensation, to them. Thus, I am their slave. Slavery is immoral.

You could easily substitute the words "Income Tax" for "Communism" above and see why all of us supposed capitalists are slaves of the Federal Government.

[Inverse Icarus]

...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SKILORD
Well, we lack a proper manifesto, but the basics of capitalism are, as Curiosity pointed out, to amass as much wealth as possible through noncoercive ends.

That will have to rest on the assumption that a worker does not need to take a job due to financial constraints, otherwise it becomes coercive.

Originally posted by SKILORD
Amassing a great deal of capital is simple? I hardly seem to think so. If it were so simple as you paint it I doubt that we would ever have heard of Marx.

It can be very simple, by being born into it. This illustrates one of the immoral aspects of Capitalism.

Originally posted by SKILORD
Do you think that there is be noone who keeps things running under Communism? Are there not managers who perform less physical labor? Does the Premier work in the mines?

You are saying they are not working?

[Tiberius]

How many of you did actually see where communism leads?

In theory it may sound good, but it becomes in time something like this:

- one party system: same politicians, all in the same boat. Make no mistake: they are the same people, only now they can do whatever they want, because the choice of vote doesn't exist anymore.

- the newspapers, the televisions are all state-controled. They are saying obviously only what the communist party wants you to hear. No critics allowed.

- everything belongs to the state, therefor no one cares about anything. "Why should I care that my company is not going well? My boss won't sack me." The boss is the state, represented by an obscure clerk working in an obscure office in the capital. He cares about the company just as much as the workers who are happily stealing everything they can.

- in communism there is no unemployment! So let's just hire anyone, even if there is no need for their work. We will just put them behind a desk to move papers from one end of the desk to the other one.

- Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than the others. Down with the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy! Long live the communist party leaders and their relatives and friends!

- Give the power to the workers! Sure, the workers know how to run a business. Oh wait, they don't have to know it, because the state knows everything. They will just give them "precious" advices.

- "To each according to his needs" - who will decide my needs? Some committee? Well, let's see, I think I have a friend in that comittee; Hurray! I need a bigger house!

- supply and demand? Forget it, the state knows it better. We will just manufacture x quantity of this and y quantity of that. What? It won't be enough? You DARE to question the party leaders' wisdom? It WILL be enough. So what if those children will have to stay hours in front of the milkshop to buy some milk? It will strenghten them.

- we can't let the evil capitalists to spread their rotten ideas! Therefor every citizen will keep its passport at the local Police, and will have the right to travel abroad once every two years; if he gets the approval.

I could continue this list for days, but honestly I'm tired of all this. I don't even want to think of it anymore.

As much as I respect GePap, Che, Tass or other communists here on Apolyton (and ironically usually I agree with them, on other issues, even if mostly I just read and don't post) I honestly think they have no idea how the jinnee would behave once you let it out from the bottle.

Hey, I'd like to believe in fairyland, too!

[MikeH]

Perfect communism is depicted in the Star Trek universe.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by MikeH
Perfect communism is depicted in the Star Trek universe.

I believe the current social free-market society from western Europe is closer to that "perfect" society than real-life communism ever was.

[Az]

Tiberius:
Hey, I lived in communism, and I thought it was ok.