Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler

[Odin]

Ned has been brainwashed by capitalist propaganda like all republicans, isn't it obvious, Che?

[Ned]

I agree that the NAZI's did not take ownership of industry. But I thought this was a back-room deal between Hitler and the industrialists which effectively transformed the NAZI's. However, they did "control" industry to the extent they told them what they could or could not work on. To the extent that control without ownership is fascism, so be it. I am not going to argue that point. However a hallmark of leftist politics in the US is state control over business through regulation. Hitler's Germany went even beyond that, didn't they.

As to the support of Ford and the Brit aristocracy for Hitler because of his anti-communism, well I support that as well. The but I would never support Nazism for a large number of other reasons. There has to be something more than simple shared anti-communism. But if that is all there is, then there was nothing at all objectional about Ford and the Brit aristocracy in its appreciation of Hitler.

Also to suggest that the left is not about denying people economic freedom - well, I think the left lives in state of self-delusion. Every example of a communist government has denied economic freedom to its people, including the right to set their own wages through negotiation.

[GePap]

Germany, Sweden, norway, France are all examples of places were industry is highly regulated, were economic theory is certainly to the left of the US, and yet workers do have the right to negotiate wages. Your mistake number one Ned is that you equate left to Marxist-Leninist or Maoist dictatorships. That is as stupid as saying all right-wing regimes are genocidal maniacs.

But if that is all there is, then there was nothing at all objectional about Ford and the Brit aristocracy in its appreciation of Hitler.

This is trully sad. So its fine to support a genocidal maniac cause he happens to be anti-communist? Oh, how moral you are.

But you know Ned, I won;t bother. Your bias is so deep and so ingrained as to be impossible to budge with anything. I won;t waste energy on it: I will only correct you when you are wrong.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Dr. S:

There are other protestant groups. What were the percentage Catholics back in 1939 in your encylopedia britannica?

Like I said, about 55%. In the 16th century Calvinist, anabaptist groups sprang up in western Germany, Bohemia, Poland and Thuringia. At the end of the Thirty Years war it was agreed that they had no place in central Europe and they were virtually eradicated except for rag-tag bands that happened to escape to England and or the Americas. By the beginning of the 20th century there were very few non-Lutheran protestants in Germany.
Something to consider is that since Hitler was nominally a Catholic, even though we know he loathed Catholicism almost as much as he loathed Judaism, many Germans may have declared themselves Catholics in the hopes of ingratiating themselves to the powers that be.

According to Catholic Heirarchy listing of Countries

Currently, you have 26.694 million Catholics out of a population of
80.77 million in Germany or 33%.

Yes, and there are about 33 million Protestants in Germany today. About 30% claim no religion. In Germany in 1938 I don't think that the "no religion" option was allowed, because it implied that you were a communist.

The historical records I can find go back to 1950, so I wil have a look and see what they say.

They won't do you any good because millions of people were displaced at the war's end.

[Ned]

I'm sorry, GePap, but the homicidal maniac came after WWII was over and we discovered what he had done. You have to look at Hitler from the days prior to WWII to form a judgment about Ford and the Brit aristocracy.

The problem I would have had at that time was the end to democracy in Germany. I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist.

Did you know that Joe Kennedy was pro-Nazi? Why?

[GePap]

I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist.

And exactly why is this? You can do business with a pro-business authocracy. You can;t make money with them damn commies. Seems simple enough.

Maybe the rampant anti-Semitism of HItler also appealed to them. Hitler was more than clear about his intentions for them as of the citizenship laws of 1935, even if one believed the nazi line that the 1934 boycotts were "spontanous" and not party-driven.

[Ben Kenobi]

Dr. S.

55% seems a bit high. I think not having a non-religious option would account for the high figure.

I was suprised to see the number of Catholics equalling the Lutherans at around 33 percent for both today.

As for the Statistics, it's a shot in the dark, but better than nothing.

In the 16th century Calvinist, anabaptist groups sprang up in western Germany, Bohemia, Poland and Thuringia. At the end of the Thirty Years war it was agreed that they had no place in central Europe and they were virtually eradicated except for rag-tag bands that happened to escape to England and or the Americas.

Umm, those rag-tag bands include the Mennonites, and the Baptists. I think they've grown somewhat since then.

What about the Reformed church? There are still a substantial number of those in Germany.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap

I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist.

And exactly why is this? You can do business with a pro-business authocracy. You can;t make money with them damn commies. Seems simple enough.

Maybe the rampant anti-Semitism of HItler also appealed to them. Hitler was more than clear about his intentions for them as of the citizenship laws of 1935, even if one believed the nazi line that the 1934 boycotts were "spontanous" and not party-driven.

That's what I think too. They agreed both with Hitler's anti-communism and with Hitler's anti-Semitism. I think they were willing to "excuse" his lack of democracy.

Strange times, those.

[chequita guevara]

What aristocrat or corporate CEO cares a whit about democracy? Corporations are dictatorships and aristocrats feel that they have a devine right to rule.

Just try and think, Ned. It may be scary, but it's actually quite wonderful.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What aristocrat or corporate CEO cares a whit about democracy? Corporations are dictatorships and aristocrats feel that they have a devine right to rule.

Just try and think, Ned. It may be scary, but it's actually quite wonderful.

As I have often said, Che, communists live in a fog of lies and are unable to distinguish between the truth and falsehood even though some of them seem rational - such a you do at times.

Corporate CEO's care about making money. If they can do deals with Hitler that make them a lot of money - who cares about whether Hitler is a democrat or not. But the very same thing is true of communist dictators. Look at all the CEO's that want to keep good relations with China. They simply want to make money and do not care about the relative lack of freedom of the Chinese people.

As to the Brit aristocracy, I would not be surprised if they liked everything about Hitler, including his suppression of German democracy.

But to come out publicly and support Hitler to the people of America and Britain? That is what Joe Kennedy did. Why? I hardly think it had anything to do with Hitler's lack of democracy. I think it was because of his anti-communism and anti-Semitism.

PS, try to tone down the personal attacks.

[Ned]

And oh, don't you think it kind of a amuzing that Jack Kennedy got elected president even though his father was pro-NAZI and that we are about to elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a member of the Kennedy clan by marriage, as governor of California even though his father was a NAZI? The closeness of NAZI-ism to the Kennedies is just a coincidence, right?

[Odin]

Ned, go sit in time-out untill you get out of YOUR delusions, were are not the delusional ones.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
And oh, don't you think it kind of a amuzing that Jack Kennedy got elected president even though his father was pro-NAZI and that we are about to elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a member of the Kennedy clan by marriage, as governor of California even though his father was a NAZI? The closeness of NAZI-ism to the Kennedies is just a coincidence, right?

The Bush family was close to the Nazis too. Actually, Joe's support of Hitler cost him his influence with the Roosevelts and meant he'd never get to be President, something which he very much wanted. As for uyour next governor, Arnie, when he toasted Waldheim after the revelations about his Nazi past came out, he horrified the Kennedys.

Lindberg also supported the Nazis.

BTW, if corporations are so willing to get in bed with countries that call themselves Communist, it might tell you something about the true nature of their regimes. Or do you think the U.S. flip-flops back and forth between a democracy and a republic depending on which party is in charge?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What about the Reformed church? There are still a substantial number of those in Germany.

I shudder to think of what being a reformed Nazi meant in 1939.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Dr.S:

A sample from the region of Prussia or German Prussia.

Prussia's a real pain because of the parts in Poland, Germany and Russia all being behind the Iron Curtain. Let's take a look at the Polish figures, and then onto Koenigsburg/ Kaliningrad.

That would make no sense (unless You mean that We'd have to find the numbers from before 1945. In Krolewiec/Kaliningrad, there are none of former citizens. Most of Poles that lived in Prussia, Prussian Silesia and Pomerania have emigrated as well and are today a minority. And when it comes to your figures, remember that most of Silesian catholics were Poles, as well as part of catholics of Warmia, part of (main) Prussia. and catholics in Saxony and Brandenburg (part that earlier, before napolean wars was Saxon) were Luzyczans. Not German. There were also protestant Poles in Masures, so it makes it even more complicated.