Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler

[Dr Strangelove]

A couple of points:

In 1938 Germany was predominantly Catholic. Today it's 45:55 Catholic:Protestant, but in 1938 it included Ostmarch (Austria), Silesia, and Prussia, areaas which were predominantly Catholic, thus reversing the ratio.

Hitler seems to have been more of a Wotan worshipping pagan than a Catholic.

In 1938 Hitler charmed Mussolini like the old man on the corner with a bag of candy charms a child. They established an on going relationship that lasted for the rest of their lives.

The Italian military was state of the art in 1936 when Mussolini expanded his forces in order to go to Francos aid. The problem was that every model of tank and plane used in the Spanish Civil war became obsolete even before that war ended. Mussolini couldn't afford to keep up with armaments development or to re-arm in preparation for the next war.

[TCO]

Free the SudTirol!

[Giovanni Wine]

Originally posted by TCO
Free the SudTirol!

Nooooo.. It's ours... we need it in order to have a competing skying team

Saluti

[Ned]

Originally posted by realpolitic
This does cast a new light on Italy, thanks.


Hitler called himself a "National Socialist", but remember, he was not known for his honesty. One of the groups he considered his main enemies were "the Bolshevics" . I don't see much Communism in Nazism, except that both are authoritian, as is fascism.

The differences were that German socialism included a lot of German racism, er, nationalism. Also communism believed in "communes" while socialism simply believed in state control of the economy. Clearly, Hitler did take control of the German economy.

Hitler also was anti-communist because he view communism as a tool of the USSR. They helped to overthrow the German government in 1918 and to surrender Germany (unnecessarily) to the Allies. They were to be "exterminated" as enemies of the Reich.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned


The differences were that German socialism included a lot of German racism, er, nationalism. Also communism believed in "communes" while socialism simply believed in state control of the economy. Clearly, Hitler did take control of the German economy.

Hitler also was anti-communist because he view communism as a tool of the USSR. They helped to overthrow the German government in 1918 and to surrender Germany (unnecessarily) to the Allies. They were to be "exterminated" as enemies of the Reich.

Yes, and so wonderfully honest were the conservatives in control of the German government before the surrender that they shoved the onerous duty of surrendering to the allies off on the Socialists, who had no connections with the Communists, nor were responsible for getting Germany into her predicament. The "men of honor" promptly went into hioding when the going went tough. Why is it that it took a second war for Germans to realize that by the fall of 1918 it was all over? Not only were the allies steadily advancing on the Western Front, but on the Southrn Front the Austrian empire had collapsed and Allied forces were advancing toward areas of Germany where there probably were no forces to oppose them. The naval rebellions were probably the kindest thing that could have happened to Germany. You'd think that at some point between the end of the war and the beginning of the world depression the German people might have gotten ahold of the truth and come to grips with reality.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine


Nooooo.. It's ours... we need it in order to have a competing skying team

Saluti

Theives!!!

[Ben Kenobi]

Prussia, areaas which were predominantly Catholic,

In the thirties? Might need to check up on that.

I know that the north of Germany is predominantly protestant, or at least back in the 19th Century.

I'm going to check and see if that balance shifted so significantly in the first part of the 20th.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


In the thirties? Might need to check up on that.

I know that the north of Germany is predominantly protestant, or at least back in the 19th Century.

I'm going to check and see if that balance shifted so significantly in the first part of the 20th.

When Prussia was given to the Hohenzollerns the native Catholics in the provinces were protected by treaty that barred forced conversion, extermination or eviction (for religious reasons). The Hohenzollerns moved in their own nobility, but the commoners remained largely Catholic.

[Ben Kenobi]

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/thenightyears.html

Coming as it did at the moment when the first excesses of the new regime, particularly against the Jews, had provoked worldwide revulsion, the concordat had given the Nazi regime much badly needed prestige abroad and at home and had tended to reassure German [Roman] Catholics, who comprised one-third of the people.


This includes Silesia, and Prussia, Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemburg, Westphalia, etc.

Now, even if all the Austrians were Catholic, this might make a 50-50 split between Catholics and Protestants in 1938, rather than overwhelmingly Catholic.

The First Stretch 1935-1936

On January 13, 1935, the inhabitants of the coal-rich Saar, occupied by the French since the end of the war, voted ten to one [477,000 to 48,000] to return to Germany. There had been some doubt that the Saarlanders, overwhelmingly [Roman] Catholic and mostly miners or workers in industry, would choose to go to a Germany run by a dictator who had crushed the free trade unions, harassed the Church, and destroyed the democratic republic. But the pull of the Fatherland, after years of hated French occupation, had been strong. Perhaps some were afraid to cast a ballot against Hitler for fear that if the vote returned them to Germany they might be found out and punished. Also, like most Germans, a lot of them had got the Nazi virus.

Hitler welcomed them back in a broadcast from Berlin. He took the occasion to assure the world that with the return of the Saar he had no further territorial claims on France. This was reassuring to the French because it meant that Germany had renounced its claim on Alsace and Lorraine, the bone of contention so long between the two countries, wrested from one country and then the other in bloody wars.

I flew down to Saarbrucken on March 1, when Germany formally took over the little land. I was a little surprised by the hysterical enthusiasm with which these [Roman] Catholic workers greeted the arrival of Hitler and troops of the S.S. and the army. The rain, which fell all day, did not dampen their Nazi spirits. Hitler seemed pleased.

-END QUOTE-

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/thenightyears.html

Coming as it did at the moment when the first excesses of the new regime, particularly against the Jews, had provoked worldwide revulsion, the concordat had given the Nazi regime much badly needed prestige abroad and at home and had tended to reassure German [Roman] Catholics, who comprised one-third of the people.

It's simple, Shirer is wrong. My source was the 1939 Encyclopedia Britannica which my family once owned. I looked the figure up to answer a bet with a friend as to whether Nazis Germany was more Lutheran than Catholic. I lost because I had thought that Germany was mostly Lutheran.

[Shi Huangdi]

Keep in mind the Pope was unable to stop France from taking the Protestant side in the 30 years war, back in the 17th century. I doubt he would have been able to do much good in the 20th century. As it was, Pope Pius XII did a good enough job to win the thanks of most Jewish leaders immediatly after WWII.

[Ben Kenobi]

Dr. S:

There are other protestant groups. What were the percentage Catholics back in 1939 in your encylopedia britannica?

Interestingly,

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/events/index.html

According to Catholic Heirarchy listing of Countries

Currently, you have 26.694 million Catholics out of a population of
80.77 million in Germany or 33%.

Including Austria, you would have:

5.83 million Catholics out of 8.026 million population.

So total Austria and Germany you would have 32.52 million Catholics out of 88.8 million population, for a percentage of 36.6% Catholic.

Now, suppose we add Croatia, the proportion goes up to 38.6% of the total.

Does there seem a good reason to presume that these numbers have changed significantly over the last 60 years?

The historical records I can find go back to 1950, so I wil have a look and see what they say.

[molly bloom]

If memory serves, at the end of the 19th Century, out of a population of roughly 60 000 000, just over a third were Catholics, in the German Empire. I think the exact figure was something like 35% or 37%.

[Ben Kenobi]

Dr.S:

A sample from the region of Prussia or German Prussia.

Prussia's a real pain because of the parts in Poland, Germany and Russia all being behind the Iron Curtain.

Province of Berlin:

1950 657,358 6,897,872 9.5%


Gorlitz:

1980 70,000 1,000,000 7.0%

1990 60,000 930,000 6.5%

1999 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2000 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2001 48,500 920,000 5.3%
2002 48,500 910,000 5.3%


Diocese of Dresden-Meissen


1950 592,531 6,042,219 9.8%

1970 351,670 5,178,526 6.8%

1980 274,500 5,217,000 5.3%

1990 248,000 4,900,000 5.1%

1999 181,113 4,385,000 4.1%
2000 181,048 4,375,000 4.1%
2001 179,360 4,359,000 4.1%
2002 179,715 4,337,000 4.1%


Now, none of these figures come close to half for German Prussia.

Let's take a look at the Polish figures, and then onto Koenigsburg/ Kaliningrad.

[Vince278]

Re: Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler

Originally posted by Myrddin
The Italian dictator Benito Mussolini asked the Pope to excommunicate Adolf Hitler days before the German leader went to Rome to seal the Axis in 1938, according to a newly discovered Vatican document.

Oh bull. I heard he was 3/4 Lutheran and 1/4 Jewish. Besides, even if he were Catholic, excommunicating heads of state was always a bad idea (ie Henry VIII). The Pope certainly didn't want him taking out his anger against Catholics any more than he already was.