Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler

[Myrddin]

Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 27/09/2003)


The Italian dictator Benito Mussolini asked the Pope to excommunicate Adolf Hitler days before the German leader went to Rome to seal the Axis in 1938, according to a newly discovered Vatican document.

The only other way of stopping Hitler was to wage war, an option that was "not wanted", Mussolini is reported as saying.

The details of Mussolini's secret request were found in the minutes of a papal audience between Pius XI and a Jesuit priest who acted as a go-between with the Vatican and the Italian leader.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/27/wpope27.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/09/27/ixportal.html

Imagine what would have happened if Hitler had tried to get the Tirol back from Italy rather than Sudetenland;- Mussolini would not have backed down, and World War 2 starts in 1938 with Germany having no allies

[Datajack Franit]

As if people could care a **** about what the Pope thinks

[The Emperor Fabulous]

I'm pretty sure the billion catholics care

[Ned]

Didn't the Church cut a deal with Hitler in this same timeframe? I think Hitler was well aware that he at least needed the cooperation of the Church to stay popular in Germany.

If this story is true, it appears that Italy's cooperation with Germany was somewhat under duress. This is quite different from what historians have typically protrayed the arrangement.

BTW, I have always wondered why Italian fascism and German national socialism would be "equated." In a sense, the one was a "rightest" movement and the other "leftist," to the extent socialism is leftist.

[Dinner]

Hitler could have just become a protestant like most of the rest of the German population.

[Giovanni Wine]

At the beginning Mussolini didn't like Hitler at all. The first time Hitler tried to annex Austria it was Mussolini who stopped him. because the Italian dictator didn't want to have Germany as a neighbor.

IIRC Austria was annexed in 1938, so maybe that request was more a reaction of Mussolini to the Austrian anschluss.

However after 1935 (War of Ethiopia) Mussolini was isolated in Europe, so even though he did not like Hitler much he had to play good with him. And I think that by 1938 Italy and Germany were very near, and that's probably what allowed Hitler to annex Austria... because he knew that: he was stronger than Mussolini, and that Mussolini needed him.

It's strange that the document is dated 1938 rather than an earlier data though... if it was say... 1934 than it wouldn't be so strange.

However in 1939 Mussolini had already became one of Hitler lackeys and he would have done whatever it needed to please him... so the anger of Mussolini against Hitler did not last much and was quickly replaced with a great admiration and respect.... unfortunatly I'd dare say.

Saluti

[Ned]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
At the beginning Mussolini didn't like Hitler at all. The first time Hitler tried to annex Austria it was Mussolini who stopped him. because the Italian dictator didn't want to have Germany as a neighbor.

IIRC Austria was annexed in 1938, so maybe that request was more a reaction of Mussolini to the Austrian anschluss.

However after 1935 (War of Ethiopia) Mussolini was isolated in Europe, so even though he did not like Hitler much he had to play good with him. And I think that by 1938 Italy and Germany were very near, and that's probably what allowed Hitler to annex Austria... because he knew that: he was stronger than Mussolini, and that Mussolini needed him.

It's strange that the document is dated 1938 rather than an earlier data though... if it was say... 1934 than it wouldn't be so strange.

However in 1939 Mussolini had already became one of Hitler lackeys and he would have done whatever it needed to please him... so the anger of Mussolini against Hitler did not last much and was quickly replaced with a great admiration and respect.... unfortunatly I'd dare say.

Saluti

Your note does suggest that Italy was given a choice - be an "ally" or suffer the same fate as Austria. Mussolini clearly was a reluctant ally. I wonder if his "admiration" of Hitler was feigned.

(Perhaps this could also explain Italian soldiers poor performance in aid of their German ally. Their hearts were really not in it.)

[Paul Hanson]

They definitely weren't after the invasion of Poland, a fellow Catholic country. It made Mussolini very uneasy about siding with Hitler, and it's why Italy didn't contribute to the Polish campaign.

[Giovanni Wine]

Actually Mussolini didn't want to enter the war, until Hitler defeated France, mostly because he thought that the Germans could have had a quick victory and he could get some of the spoils of the war.

It is strange but prior to Ethiopia Mussolini actually wanted to create with France and England an anti-Hitler alliance.

But after Ethiopia both the French and the English pushed sanctions against Italy and Mussolini had to embrace Hitler as his only ally in Europe.

Nonetheless I would blame the Italian poor performance on our bad equipment and poor organization, as our army was outdated and air force was almost nonexistant (only the Navy was good, and that's why the Allies asked for it to be given to them when Italy signed the armistice ) than in a possible reluctancy of the Italians to help the Germans.

Probably what you say could be true for some soldiers... but I don't think it could be considered as the major cause.

Saluti

[Ned]

So, the Brits and the French are primarily responsble for forcing an ally from WWI into Hitler's axis. How stupid of them.

Also imagine the history books. Mussulini would be protrayed as a "hero" rather than a villain.

England almost did the same thing when the USSR invaded Finland and then Poland. But cooler heads prevailed. England did not need to drive the whole of Europe into Hitler's alliances.

[realpolitic]

This does cast a new light on Italy, thanks.

Originally posted by Ned

BTW, I have always wondered why Italian fascism and German national socialism would be "equated." In a sense, the one was a "rightest" movement and the other "leftist," to the extent socialism is leftist.

Hitler called himself a "National Socialist", but remember, he was not known for his honesty. One of the groups he considered his main enemies were "the Bolshevics" . I don't see much Communism in Nazism, except that both are authoritian, as is fascism.

[Ben Kenobi]

As if people could care a **** about what the Pope thinks

There are a great deal many Catholics in Germany. The problem with the request in 1938, is that it would really be too late. All this could do is dishearten many of the faithful Catholics, particularly in Bavaria and in Austria from co-operating with Hitler.

That's an interesting point you make about Poland and Italy, that Italy did not really want to side with Hitler after he dismembered Poland, a fellow Catholic country.

[The Andy-Man]

Hitler could have just become a protestant like most of the rest of the German population.

Austria, Bavaria, most of southern Germany.......

Hitler being excommunicated would have probably led to his downfall, or atleast, would have weakend his public support detramentaly



edit: got there before me Ben Kenobi

[Giovanni Wine]

So, the Brits and the French are primarily responsble for forcing an ally from WWI into Hitler's axis. How stupid of them.

To some extent... yes

But then again.. Mussolini knew that the Brits would have been mad if he invaded Ethiopia, so he knew that by doing it his plans of isolating Hitler would have failed.

And yes... probably Mussolini would have been portrayed as an hero, had England and France not placed sanctions on Italy... but that means that I would be living under a dictatorship by now... or worse... my family would have gone to France and I would be French now

The reason the Brits were enraged by the Italian invasion of Ethiopia was because Ethiopia was right in the middle of the British colonial possesions in Africa.

The French just followed along

Saluti

[Ben Kenobi]

edit: got there before me Ben Kenobi

You beat me in the peace thread, so we are even.