A Question for the Religious Types

[Whaleboy]

I'm not actually religious, but I was once, and I know people in the Jewish community (liberal judaism), and there was no hostility or disapproval of homosexuality. The biblical crap against it is seen as a relic from an ancient text designed for a dead culture that lived in the desert 3000 years ago. I suppose its only only the orthodox jews that take it literally .

[lord of the mark]

Leviticus says that you shall not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination.

Orthodox Judaism considers the bible text the word of G-d, and continues to consider homosexual acts as forbidden, though more "progressive" orthodox leaders will consider Gays as "ill" and thus not worthy of hatred.

Reform Judaism sees much of the bible as of human origin, and laws other than ethical imperatives as guidelines, to be dispensed with when failing the test of reason. Though in the past reform Jews along with other citizens of the West saw "heterosexual privilege" as very much in line with reason, most dont anymore.

Conservative Judaism acknowledges what we have learned about the human origin of the biblical text, but finds in the Jewish peoples commitment to it and history with it evidence of divine inspiration. It treats biblical law as binding, but attempts to use traditional Jewish interpretative techniques to modify those laws that the Jewish people can no longer live with. With respect to homosexuality the movement is split - especially on the issues of gay ordination and gay commitment ceremonies. The traditional interpretation of Leviticus goes pretty far back, after all. And unlike Christians, we take seriously ALL the specific laws in Leviticus, not just the homophobic ones. Some rabbis have attempted some modern reinterpretations - one I am familiar with claims that the biblical injunction must be in seen in context of biblical texts like the story of Sodom, where homosexual sex is exploitative. Ergo the injunction would not apply to a commited, loving relationship. In addition to disputes over interpretation, there is a largely generational split wrt to overall attitude to homosexuality. Overall the movement is still struggling, to find a way to reconcile compassion with textual loyalty, to change when required butto do so cautiously, recognizing that we dont always understand all the implications of changes we make. I am proud to be part of such a movement.

Oh and of course even liberal and reform jews would not call the bible crap, or consdier ancient jewish culture as entirely dead.

[Q Classic]

i'm catholic, and i know what the church has to say on it.
i'm not a good catholic, which means that i don't really listen to them on this matter.

i have no problem with gays. if they want to do whatever, let them, so long as it does not infringe upon my rights. sure, i can buy it's a sin. i can buy that the church says it's immoral, even if i don't really give a hoot what people do in their bedrooms.
so what? we all sin, so why should i judge others for sinning when i myself don't follow all the precepts that i should? hell, i've lied to my parents, think that abortion is not something i can enforce, believe that contraception is by and large a good thing (and a device employed alas far too sparingly), and haven't kept myself pure for marriage. and for me to say that homosexuals are sinning worse than i am? for me to judge them because they aren't following a code of morals that they may or may not believe in? it smacks of arrogance and hypocrisy.

what it boils down to is that if it's really a sin, and homosexuals want to "save" themselves, they have to do it, and it has to be their journey. they have to come to the realization themselves, and it has to be god that moves them, not a mere sinning human like me, or a televangelist, or any of those holier-than-thou fundamentalists.
if they don't believe it's a sin, that's fine too, because they don't have to believe in our religion.

i honestly cannot understand why so many people, in their quest for "right", decide to make it their business what people do behind closed doors in the privacy of their own home. turn your gaze and your wrath inwards first, before daring the venture out and cast stones.

[Agathon]

Does it really matter?

I mean, the set of people who really hate homosexuals is not coextensive with the set of Christians or Jews or Muslims. There are plenty of non-religious people who loathe queers and plenty who do.

On the other hand, most of the religious posters on this forum, while they consider homosexuality and gay marriage to be a moral wrong, are not going to be party to physical harm or extreme forms of discrimination against homosexuals, simply because they are decent people. It isn't their fault that the nutjob extremists get most of the press.

[lord of the mark]

i would point out another thing.

While it may not be desirable for Judaism to ordain gay rabbis, or conduct Gay commitment ceremonies, it does NOT follow that we should oppose the state recognizing some form of same sex union. After all we accept that the state recognizes all kinds of marriages that Judaism does not.

[Jack_www]

I would like to answer this question.
I believe that any sex outside of marriage is immoral, thus wrong and I am sure that many are offended by it including gay people. I stand up for what I believe even if everyone in the world thought I was wrong. With these kind of issues I dont think anyone, what ever you believe should be affect by others that are "offended" by what you stand for. If I went arround worring who I might offend because of my beliefs I would not even have a spine .

[Japher]

I like your attitude Jack_www.

[Q Classic]

there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in. but don't judge others without taking a good long look at yourself.

[chequita guevara]

When I was religious I did not believe that homosexuality was a sin anymore than I believed eating pork was a sin. Remember what Jeshua said, it is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out.

[Drake Tungsten]

Remember what Jeshua said, it is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out.

It goes in and out, doesn't it?

[chequita guevara]

Smilie when you say that.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in. but don't judge others without taking a good long look at yourself.

I dont judge others. I leave that to God. I also live by what I believe. I dont hate gay people, like I dont hate people that decide it is alright to have sex when ever they feel like it. I think what they do is wrong but I never judge people because I dont know all the facts ect.

[Agathon]

*Agathon wonders why LOTM insists on turning every single thread he participates in into a lecture about Judaism*

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: A Question for the Religious Types

Originally posted by Asher
Since Imran got the other thread deleted after a rather embarassing brainfart for him, I thought we'd try this again, toned down.

Actually, dear, you got the other thread deleted, and the only reason you didn't get banned is that I have a very nasty pulled muscle at the base of my ribcage, so at the time, you weren't worth the pain of the few extra keystrokes. By the time the anti-inflammatories and painkillers kicked in (they've worn off now :hint: ), I didn't give a damn.

So yes, keep it toned down.

[Az]

I am not religious, but I don't think that homosexuality, on itself, is ethicaly on par with heterosexuality. Hetrosexuality is obviously the most common way things work, and is needed for continuation of society. Homosexuality forces society to tackle with a different way of life in the very core of human existance, sexual relationships. It WOULD be easier for everyone if everyone was straight. but.........

Alas, ( ) many people, for some reason, do not follow that pattern, for some reason. Most chances are, it's the way they were wired during their early years, by these or other factors, just like some kids were wired for other things, or perhaps, were designed genetically to prefer other kids. So, of course, in the field of sexuality, gay people are not the standard, and not the 'best' way to behave, if we look at the socium.

So what?

I return to my favourite example: Smoking.

Smoking is not the 'best' way to behave, but we don't ban smokers from our society, we don't ostracize them. They're just ordinary folk, with a peculiar habit. Something we wouldn't like our kids to do.

Why homosexuality is different?