Supply Side Economics vs Christianity

[TCO]

Originally posted by Sava

I actually had a bunch of windows open and thought this was stuff from the OT post counting thread.

[Zulu Elephant]

Originally posted by David Floyd
In any case, the Bible also acknowledges that no one is perfect.

Yes, but it says that we should still all strive to be perfect even though it is always out of our reach.

[Sava]

Originally posted by David Floyd


No, that verse is simply an illustration of why many people are not able to pick God over money. The Bible says that man cannot serve two masters (God and money), and that verse is an illustration of that point.

So I am right.

In any case, the Bible also acknowledges that no one is perfect.

Well duh... the problem I have with many denominations is that they teach that you will NOT be judged on your overall life, but rather, only if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior... even as late as your deathbed. And I have a problem with that. I don't believe that God lets someone like Hitler into heaven just because he accepts Jesus. I think if there is an afterlife,etc, that one is judged based upon one's entire life, not just a deathbed acceptance of Jesus.

Most protestant denominations that teach silly things like that sound like corrupt lawyers searching for loopholes. And God, if he's omnipotent and perfect and everything, doesn't allow loopholes.

[Dr Strangelove]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by JohnT
You mean stuff like this, MikeH?

It might be instructive to read the entire 25th chapter of Matthew's Gospel. Jesus is describing the kingdom of heaven. The chapter begins with the parable of the virgins waiting for the marriage ceremony. Those who keep their lamps burning are admitted, and those who do not are sent away as if they were not invited. Then follows the parable of the servants given "talents" by the master as you related. Remeber that this is a parable. Just as Christ was obviously not talking about the care of oil lamps in the first parable told within this chapter, it's obvious that he's not really talking about investment strategies in this parable. Instead he's admonishing the listeners to keep constant care of their souls. In the first parable he's telling the audience that we should live each day as if it might be our last, and not to compromise our believes. but instead to keep the lamp of our faith trimmed at all times. In the second parable he's admonishing us to give of ourselves, our talents, regardless of how great or how meager they are. He rebukes the man who buried his talents because the man defames him (God) by accusing God of being harsh and unreasonable.

The parable is about spirituality, not economics.

[Giant_Squid]

Jesus would not be in favor of forcing anyone to donate, and he would not be in favor of socialist-type economic systems. Of course, he wouldn't specifically favor laissez-faire type economic systems, either, which is the whole point. Jesus wasn't interested in politics or economics or any of this kind of thing. However, Jesus' overall message emphasizes personal choice, rather than forced giving, so take that however you like.

While I agree about him not being interested in politics or economics, I'm not sure that he would be so against forced giving. For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also - that is, don't begrudge someone something just because they're stealing it from you. He also says "Render unto Caesar unto Caesar, and unto God what is God's" - so obviously he supported or at least didn't oppose some kind of compulsory taxation.
But I don't even think that's entirely the point of this comic. The point isn't that conservative ideas about taxation are contrary to Jesus' message, it's that a lot of the ideology of conservativism is. The part about how if he helped the lepers it would take away the incentive to avoid leprosy and they should help themselves is straight out of Republican rhetoric, but doesn't involve taxation a bit.

Funny funny comic, but I still prefer the Gospel of Cheesus the Dairy Messiah

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Giant_Squid
While I agree about him not being interested in politics or economics, I'm not sure that he would be so against forced giving. For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also

This means "return good for evil", not "be a sap that everyone takes advantage of".

He also says "Render unto Caesar unto Caesar, and unto God what is God's" - so obviously he supported or at least didn't oppose some kind of compulsory taxation.

Considering the circumstances he was under at the time he said this, this can hardly be construed as Jesus economic policy.

[Ben Kenobi]

The OT is largely irrelevant.

David Floyd, you are not correct, in stating this. The OT is most relevant to Christians, although some parts less than others.

For example, look at what Jesus says about the Mosaic Law:

Matthew 5:17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Now there are a great deal of arguments over which OT covenants also apply to Christians, but no one says that the entire OT does not apply.

[Ben Kenobi]

Secondly, regarding the Parable of the rich man.

Mark 17-23:

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"


The problem is not with possessions, but with letting possessions come ahead of God. Jesus urges the man to trust God.

Again, we see this ideal in Ecclesiastes 11:1

"Cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will find it again."

Also,

Matthew 6:31-33

"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

[Sava]

ha ha Floyd, I have Christians on my side!

[Berzerker]

Sava -

sorry, I had bad formatting.

I'd call it bad "logic".

[Berzerker]

Zulu E -

Just thouht I'd post this as a reply to all those screaming nonsense about the bible nowhere telling us to give away our money

Can you quote someone here saying that?

Ben -

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

And the law is?

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

And what were these commandments? Hint, there's 2
but you know that.

Now there are a great deal of arguments over which OT covenants also apply to Christians, but no one says that the entire OT does not apply.

That's a big problem, true? Which one's did Jesus say apply?

G Squid -

For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also - that is, don't begrudge someone something just because they're stealing it from you.

I believe he said if someone asks you for your coat, give them your cloak too. He added something about walking more with them than they requested.

[Berzerker]

Oh yeah, I noticed Franken and Simpson (or anyone here) didn't quote Jesus telling his followers to go out and "tax" their brothers to enrich the poor. Oh well...

[Giant_Squid]

Berserker: "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."

The OT is highly irrelevant

YOU HERETIC! THE OT IS GREAT! EVERYONE LOVES THE OT...oh, wait, you were talking about the Old Testament, not the Off-Topic. Carry on.

[Berzerker]

Okay, so it neither stealing or asking for the coat, but a lawsuit.

[Ben Kenobi]

Berzerker:

And the law is?

Good question. The "Law" can mean different things depending on the context. Generally, it refers to the Mosaic law, 10 commandments. However, in Matthew 22, it seems to include the first part of the OT, the Pentateuch since the Jews called this portion the 'Law' since it summed up God's commands for good moral conduct.

These books include Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

And what were these commandments? Hint, there's 2
but you know that.

Might as well cite the passage.

Matt 22:36-40

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Which one's did Jesus say apply?

He does not really get into that beyond my earlier post with the 'least stroke of the pen.'

As far as I see, the part of the OT that makes less sense for Christians than for Jews, are the sacrificial system, since Christ is to be the 'Passover lamb'. No further sacrifices are needed to atone for sin, since Christ's sacrifice has atoned for everyone.

The second part would have to do with the strictures on 'cleanness and uncleanness', again for the reasons above. Cleanness had great significance with respect to the sacrificial system, but less so without.