Bus Bombing in Jerusalem

[Eli]

Yesterday the goverment decided that assasinations will be allowed again.

A few minutes ago, Ismail Abu Shanab of the Hamas was killed in Gaza when helicopters fired on his car. CNN says that at least 2 more people were killed.

[Spiffor]

Not to mention that the settlements would be considered genocide.

Erm, I know the settlers aren't playing buddy-buddy with the locals they expel, and I know things can get really rough, up to armes opposition and murder. Settlements are always associated with massive humiliation of the locals too, as well as with a captation of water resources...
But genocide ? Do you have any idea of what genocide means ? Do you think the Germans in Poland past WW2 were "genocided" ? Would it be possible for you to put things in perspective please ?

I say that, and I'm a diehard opponent of settlements, which should all be burned IMO. But if you could stop the crap, and if you could stop banalizing the word "genocide", I'd thanks you.

[lightblue]

Cybergnu - You have to keep in mind that a lot of the hardcore "resistance" (I'd like to call them terrorists) wouldn't be satisfied with the West bank and gaza, they want the destruction of Israel as a whole. Therefore comparing this with resistance fighters against the nazis (who did not target german civilians) is completely bunk.

[Eli]

Originally posted by lightblue
Cybergnu - You have to keep in mind that a lot of the hardcore "resistance" (I'd like to call them terrorists) wouldn't be satisfied with the West bank and gaza, they want the destruction of Israel as a whole. Therefore comparing this with resistance fighters against the nazis (who did not target german civilians) is completely bunk.

Heh. Gnu himself wont be satisfied until Israel as a whole is destroyed.

[Eli]

According to some reports the Hamas declared the Hudna to be over, following the assasination.

Funny, killing 20 people in Jerusalem was considered part of the cease fire by them.

[shammy]

Yeah, hilarious.

"Within minutes, Hamas declared an end to the temporary truce it announced on 29 June and vowed revenge."

They must be lunatics if they think Israel is giving a rats a** about their so called.. 'truce'. No government would negotiate with terrorist organisations, it would make a horrible example to the rest of the world. Too bad the media all over the world made good job on making this truce.. or cease fire to be almost _official_. Sad.

I wonder how things turn out now.. what will be the extremists response to the assassination. I wonder if theres going to be a more deadly response when the next suicidebombing occurs.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
Yesterday the goverment decided that assasinations will be allowed again.

A few minutes ago, Ismail Abu Shanab of the Hamas was killed in Gaza when helicopters fired on his car. CNN says that at least 2 more people were killed.

One leader and 2 bodyguards killed. Zero - repeat zero - civilians killed. Very good work, IDF.


It is of course unfortunate if, as seems likely, some civilians were injured. Hopefully the PA will take it from here and crush Hamas, so operations like this will not be necessary in future.

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Hopefully the PA will take it from here and crush Hamas, so operations like this will not be necessary in future.

Yeah, palestinian civil war would be nice.

[CyberGnu]

Spiffor: sorry, but I'm going by the definition of the term.

From the EB:
In 1946, under the impact of revelations at the Nürnberg and other war-crimes trials, the General Assembly of the United Nations affirmed that “genocide is a crime under international law which the civilized world condemns, and for the commission of which principals and accomplices are punishable.” In 1948 the General Assembly approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which went into effect in 1951.

The fact that under the convention genocide is a crime whether it is committed in time of peace or of war distinguishes it from the “crimes against humanity,” defined by the International Military Tribunal at Nürnberg as acts committed in connection with crimes against peace, or war crimes. Under the terms of the convention, “genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such: (a) killing members of the group, (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, (e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.” Conspiracy, incitement, attempt, and complicity in genocide are also made punishable. Perpetrators may be punished whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials, or private individuals. They may be tried by a competent tribunal of the state in which the act was committed or by an international penal tribunal whose jurisdiction has been accepted by the contracting parties.

One of the results of the convention has been the establishment of the principle that genocide, even if perpetrated by a government in its own territory, is not an internal matter (“a matter essentially within the domestic jurisdiction”) but a matter of international concern. Any contracting state may call upon the United Nations to intervene and to take such action as it considers appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide. See also Nürnberg trials.


As you can see, the systematic replacement of the indigeneous population with settlers is actually genocide.

There is more than one way to kill a people, you know...

[CyberGnu]

lightblue:

Cybergnu - You have to keep in mind that a lot of the hardcore "resistance" (I'd like to call them terrorists) wouldn't be satisfied with the West bank and gaza, they want the destruction of Israel as a whole. Therefore comparing this with resistance fighters against the nazis (who did not target german civilians) is completely bunk.

And without popular support they'd be powerless. Just like the Irgun was after the brits left.

BTW, the french resistance DID target german civilians... Not to mention french civilians: IIRC, the french resistance killed more frenchmen than germans...

[CyberGnu]

Heh. Gnu himself wont be satisfied until Israel as a whole is destroyed.

Translation: I intellectually know he is right, but that would hurt to much to admit, so I'll just scream anti-semite instead.

Way to go, Eli.

[CyberGnu]

According to some reports the Hamas declared the Hudna to be over, following the assasination.

Funny, killing 20 people in Jerusalem was considered part of the cease fire by them.

They held the ceasefire until Israel violated it. Repeatedly. What more do you want?

[CyberGnu]

Shammy:

They must be lunatics if they think Israel is giving a rats a** about their so called.. 'truce'. No government would negotiate with terrorist organisations, it would make a horrible example to the rest of the world. Too bad the media all over the world made good job on making this truce.. or cease fire to be almost _official_. Sad.

You mean, apart from the goverments of USA, England, France, Holland, Russia, India, Indonesia, Morocco, South Africa, Mexico, Colombia, Peru etc etc?

Too bad the media all over the world made good job on making these peace negotiations to be almost _official_. Well, in most cases actually official. Sad.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
As you can see, the systematic replacement of the indigeneous population with settlers is actually genocide.

There is more than one way to kill a people, you know...

1. The replacement of the indigenous population with settlers has long stopped being systematic. Most often, settlements are not decided by the Israeli government, and sometimes they aren't even tolerated by the Israeli government.
Besides, if this process was "systematic", you can be sure no Palestinian would be living in Palestine right now... The Palestinians are not able to resist the Israeli military might, when it's used at full force (and for a reason: how can you beat a disproportionate and modern army with untrained people armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers ?).
Had Israel decided to remove the Palestinians "systematically", the situation we'd have would be way different. We wouldn't even think of an independent Palestinian State today

2. The Palestinian people is not getting destroyed with the existing settlements. At the contrary, it focuses the nationalistic hatred for the Israeli (which are indeed invaders when it comes to settlements). And this nationalistic hatred is the core element of the emerging Palestinian national identity. In some way, the settlements favor the Palestinian national identity... I hardly see how it destroys the people.

[CyberGnu]

1) So, since Hitler didn't manage to kill ALL the jews, the holocaust really wasn't that bad?

While not quite in the same league, it does illustrate the point, don't you think? Or, on the other end of the scale: stabbing someone is still a crime, even if you happen to wear a gun at the time...

2) Transforming a people know for hard work and entrepeneurial spirt into a people defined by hatred - Isn't that destroying a people?

But if we would accept your argument as valid, wouldn't that justify pretty much any genocide through history? After all, would Israel even exist if it hadn't been for the holocaust?