Bus Bombing in Jerusalem

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
It's not fair to condemn an entire people.

I'm not. I have stated a fact though which is just about no one wants the Palestinians. Not the other Arab states, not Israel, not Europe, and not the US. Why? Because the average Palestinian is poor, uneducated, and permissive towards radical religious violence.

[Ned]

Why is Abbas resisting going after the terrorist groups? Once we answer this question, we potentially could solve the problem by addressing it

I suspect that Arafat might be part of a problem, but I don't know. It may be that Abbas fears for his life. The terrorist groups would likely try to take Abbas out if he went after them. Addressing Abbas's security concerns may be away on getting him to move on the terrorists.

[CyberGnu]

Are we supposed to be suprised? Since the palestinians declared the ceasfire, Israeli troops have killed 8 palestinians (one of which a 4 year old girl).

Yes, that is troops. Not single lunatics. Not members of a radical fringe movement. Troops. The legal arm of the occupying power.

And when the palestinians finally get enraged enough to strike back, it's only proof of what animals they are.

Man, israelis are good at propaganda... It sickens me.


Stop giving lip service to peace. Start acting. Demand a REAL ceasefire. Demand an end to the occupation. Demand a return to civilized society.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by our_man
The Hudna: from Siro's description is doesn't exactly sound as if Islamic society is as honourable as it would like us to believe.

The sad sad truth.

I really hope that the ceasefire holds, despite the horrible act that was committed. Violence just begets more violence. Look at the improvement in Northern Ireland since people started talking (OK, there are huge differences between Israel and Northern Ireland, but some of the lessons learned there can still apply).

The difference being: Hamas and IJ won't settle for less than every Jew in Israel dead or deported.

And, no offence to the Israeli posters, but it seems that there is a never-ending supply of high-ranking militants. The way you say that Israel will go after them seems to suggest that previous efforts up until the ceasefire had barely dented the leadership of organizations such as Hamas, yet it seemed to me watching the news that a high level terrorist official was being killed every week.

That is a problem, but it's a matter of actual targets.

We killed off the 2nd highest ranks. Only those clearly implicated in the "military wing" which is a very 'fake' distinction.

When we began killing people of the first rank, they quickly subdued and agreed to the cease fire.

We only killed 1 or 2 people of the first rank for years and years now. I hope it's about to change.

The truth be told, I didn't see much progress before the road map, and if things go back to the way they were, I can't envision any being made either. But at the same time, Israel cannot afford to let this atrocity go unpunished. If Abbas doesn't start taking action immediately, I don't know what will happen, except it won't be good.

Funny thing.


Abbas said that he is suspending all contacts with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and in a matter of days will set out to arrest members of those organizations.

Hmm... just yesterday noon he was going on and on about how he is not ready or not able to do it. Suddenly, a few Israeli lives later, he gathers the tremendous strength

[Dom Pedro II]

Hmm... just yesterday noon he was going on and on about how he is not ready or not able to do it. Suddenly, a few Israeli lives later, he gathers the tremendous strength

Unfortunately, sometimes that's what it takes...

It's easier every time they do this to distance yourself from them...

[Sirotnikov]

Are we supposed to be suprised? Since the palestinians declared the ceasfire, Israeli troops have killed 8 palestinians (one of which a 4 year old girl).

(source about the girl?)

How can you compare incidents where Israeli troops hunt for terrorists, and incidents when terrorists hunt for civilian blood.

Most of the casualties on the Palestinain side were Hamas and Jihad members which were 'ticking bomb' situations (as in - we knew they were going to organize a suicide in a matter of days)

Furthermore several Israeli civilians have been killed in a suicide boming, several shootings and a knife attack.

Yes, that is troops. Not single lunatics. Not members of a radical fringe movement. Troops. The legal arm of the occupying power.

Yes - troops whose job it is to arrest or kill lunatics which the intelligence knows to be ticking bombs.

There is absolutely no equivalence between military targetting illegal combatants, and the said illegal combatants targetting innocent civilians on the other side.

And when the palestinians finally get enraged enough to strike back, it's only proof of what animals they are.

Yes, it's clearly a proof of what animals they are when they overtly and intentionally target innocent civilian population. That is both a heinous immoral act, and a war crime.

Hunting out illegal combatants hiding in civilian areas, is not a war crime.


What you're doing is effectively moreally equating how the FBI arrests / kills mobsters, and how the mobsters take revenge against random civilians.

Stop giving lip service to peace. Start acting. Demand a REAL ceasefire. Demand an end to the occupation. Demand a return to civilized society.

A real ceasefire means that terrorist groups are disarmed and disabled.

A civilized society means that the method of intentionally targetting innocent civilians (aka "terrorism") is banned and considered morally corrupt.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
A real ceasefire means that terrorist groups are disarmed and disabled.

A real ceasefire just means no one is shooting at each other, nothing more. What you and Gnu are talking about is peace which is another concept entirely.

[Dom Pedro II]

Unless you consider the terrorist groups as some kind of a political entity, which I'm sure they think they are, in which case, that's not necessarily true... but honestly, what's the point of a terrorist group when they've given up terrorizing.

[CyberGnu]

Source:

As usual, New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/20/international/middleeast/20MBOX.html

How can you compare incidents where Israeli troops hunt for terrorists, and incidents when terrorists hunt for civilian blood.

I don't. To compare the actions of a group fighting for their freedom against a foreign oppressor with the actions of uniformed troopers murdering civilians - well that just wouldn't be right.

Most of the casualties on the Palestinain side were Hamas and Jihad members which were 'ticking bomb' situations (as in - we knew they were going to organize a suicide in a matter of days)

So? Hamas, IJ and Fatah all expressively said that unless Israel stopped killing palestinians, they would not be bound by the ceasefire agreement.

And for weeks they upheld their end of the agreement. Until Israel started the murders again.

Of course, a cynical man might think that Israel decided that the ceasefire was to dangerous to the goal of stealing more land... And that killing a few militants would surely restart that cycel of violence.

Yes - troops whose job it is to arrest or kill lunatics which the intelligence knows to be ticking bombs.

No, troops whose job it is to follow the orders of their civilian leaders. Apparently those orders include slaughtering palestinians - which is why it is an infinitly worse crime.

There is absolutely no equivalence between military targetting illegal combatants, and the said illegal combatants targetting innocent civilians on the other side.

More grist for the propaganda mill. Leave palestine, then you might have a point.

Yes, it's clearly a proof of what animals they are when they overtly and intentionally target innocent civilian population. That is both a heinous immoral act, and a war crime.

Hurting someone until they strike back might make them animals, but only because of your actions. It's your responsibility to suffer whatever pain is caused while the return to normal society.

You keep using the circular argument: They are animals because we hurt them. We must hurt them because they are animals.

Hunting out illegal combatants hiding in civilian areas, is not a war crime.

But extra-judicial assassinations are. (well, not war crime, but a crime). Every single palestinian has the right a fair trial. If you invalidate that right, you are nothing but a criminal yourself. '

What you're doing is effectively moreally equating how the FBI arrests / kills mobsters, and how the mobsters take revenge against random civilians.

The FBI are bound by civilized law. They cannot arrest a mobster without a warrant.

furthermore, one cannot equate mobsters with palestins. Mobsters are driven by greed. Palestinians are driven by the need to lift the yoke of oppression. That should tell you which cause is just, and which is not... (And ironicially applicable to Israelis as well).

A real ceasefire means that terrorist groups are disarmed and disabled.

I suggest looking up the word "ceasefire".

A ceasefire would simply be what the name entails: Neither side is killing the other. But as I said, if I was cynical I might suggest that this wouldn't be in Israels interests... Cause after all, what are 20 people on a bus compared to another chunk of palestinian land?

A civilized society means that the method of intentionally targetting innocent civilians (aka "terrorism") is banned and considered morally corrupt.

Have I claimed that palestine has a civilized society?

Seriously, was my point fuzzy enough for you to not get the point? Israelis should demand that ISRAEL becomes a civilized society.

And of course, we all should work for Palestine being a civilized society as well, there is no way that is going to happen under the Israeli boot.

[CyberGnu]

Dino, not quite... I meant a ceasefire. But hopefully peace would follow, if Bush actually kept up some pressure on Israel.

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think that the best solution would be to kick them all out (Jew and Arab alike) Roman style because they obviously can not play together.

This makes no sense, they will all be fleeing to Europe/US, and they don't belong there.

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Abbas said that he is suspending all contacts with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and in a matter of days will set out to arrest members of those organizations.

Hmm... just yesterday noon he was going on and on about how he is not ready or not able to do it. Suddenly, a few Israeli lives later, he gathers the tremendous strength

I'd wager he had some (more) pressure put upon him.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
How can you compare incidents where Israeli troops hunt for terrorists, and incidents when terrorists hunt for civilian blood.

Most of the casualties on the Palestinain side were Hamas and Jihad members which were 'ticking bomb' situations (as in - we knew they were going to organize a suicide in a matter of days)

Furthermore several Israeli civilians have been killed in a suicide boming, several shootings and a knife attack.

Siro, You can't reason with bigots. Why try? I like to think that deep down the anti-semites on this board know they are hypocrites who deliberately create double standards in an attempt to justify their bigotry but in the end...

There will always be people who try to twist facts, ignore the obvious, and do what ever it takes to let them continue their delusional little ideology.

[Frozzy]

Senseless terrorism again

[Dinner]

Originally posted by our_man
My point is that there is very little skill involved in Palestinian attacks; all they do is use suicide bombers - they have absolutely no variation in their tactics, it's the same thing over and over again. It it not through the skill of their leaders that they prevail, it's a matter of odds. If they use enough suicide bombers, one of them is bound to get through eventually.

You may be right about it as the situation exiss today. 10 to 20 year ago the Israelis could knock off the expert bomb maker and then the Palestinian terror groups would have a shortage of bombs but no days you can find the design plans right over the internet.

You may be may just be right about anyone being replaceable on a technical level. Still, alost of these organizations simply must be run like the mafia were it's all personal contacts and you trust so and so because he's your wife's kid brother and you've known him for 20 years. If you start killing a bunch of people so that you get new people into the structures who aren't quite as loyal to one another and whom they are quite as sure if they can trust one another then that's bound to have an effect.

Maybe not as much as I'd like but still it add on the threat of iminiant assassination and you have a situation where anything, including turn coats and informers, can happen.