Bus Bombing in Jerusalem

[Sirotnikov]

bah.

105 injured
number of critical to severe down to 15

15 dead

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I still don't get why the terrorist groups are considered as possible disuccion mates. Their aim is to destroy Israel pure and simple, and every concession they'll make will be temporary and tactical.
:

im sorry to say this Spiffor, cause youre a european who seems to have a lot of good sense and to be a person of good will,but it seems the reason for France and its sympathizers in the EU to take a positive view of Hamas is obvious. A settlement between Israel and Abbas would be a diplomatic triumph for the US, and would end one of the main obstacles to US influence in the region. It would thus be a disaster for those who fear US "hyperpuissance" and whose main international strategy is to hinder that "hyperpuissance".

[Eli]

Yup. The IJ claimed responsibility, supposedly in retaliation to the killing of some IJ terrorist couple days ago. Well, one thing the Arab terrorists do better than Israel is keep promises and threats.

[Dom Pedro II]

im sorry to say this Spiffor, cause youre a european who seems to have a lot of good sense and to be a person of good will,but it seems the reason for France and its sympathizers in the EU to take a positive view of Hamas is obvious. A settlement between Israel and Abbas would be a diplomatic triumph for the US, and would end one of the main obstacles to US influence in the region. It would thus be a disaster for those who fear US "hyperpuissance" and whose main international strategy is to hinder that "hyperpuissance".

Umm... national paranoia?

[Edan]

20 dead, 80+ wounded.

Dismantle the terrorist organizations, Abbas!

[Spiffor]

LOTM:
This is a sound explanation, however I doubt a settlement of the problem would bring such influence to the US in the region. The road map has been presented by the quartet (despite the other 3 being more discreet, they have been instrumental in drawing it) and as things go on, there is more and more international cooperation on the Israel / Palestine conflict, because nobody wants this war to continue anymore.

The ME problem fuels Islamist or Arabic extremism worldwide, which is bad for Russia as well as for France (big Arabic community that identifies more and more to the Palestinian cause here).

I have thought of two reasons as to why France wanted to make the politcal arm of the Hamas a negociation partner:
- To appease extremist Arabs in France. Chirac gives a great importance to inner cohesion and domestic safety. The more appeased the Arabs (even the radical fringe), the more quite things are, the better for Chirac.
- A real belief that negociation works. France has had some positive experiences with negociating with underground / terrorist groups. In New Caledonia, for example, the bloodbath stopped as soon as the use of overwhelming force stopped, and when the independantists were acknowledged as a valid negociation partner. We had something similar in Corsica. And last but not least, the negociations in Ivory Coast between the Rebels and the Loyalists are so far a success.

But I don't think negociation can work with these particular beasts, the Hamas and the IJ. Their aim is not legitimate or realist in any way - their aim is the destruction of Israel, and there is little reason they change their mind, since they weren't created over the strive for better living conditions for the Palestinians, but they were created over the hatred of Israel.

[Az]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, Abbas hasn't enough power to say anything else, but I'm surprised by the others' reaction. I still don't get why the terrorist groups are considered as possible disuccion mates. Their aim is to destroy Israel pure and simple, and every concession they'll make will be temporary and tactical.
Discussing with them may provide a temporary truce, but they'll never be satisfied until Israel is disbanded and Israelis are sent to the seas You can't discuss with these people. You have to cut off their financial and moral support, and physically destroy its key members

[Eli]

I'm 24 hours away from declaring once and for all that I simply dont give a damn for what's going on in this insane country.

If the hudna remains in place after this... blissfull apathy, here I come.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Edan
20 dead, 80+ wounded.

Dismantle the terrorist organizations, Abbas!

He can't. It would mean civil war which he will lose. Arafat will just keep sheltering and supplying the terrorists in hopes that one day the Jews will get sick of it and sign away more and more of their birth right.

[Eli]

40 out of the 105 wounded are children.

[Eli]

[Sirotnikov]

Well the threat of a Palestinian civil war I wasn't sure I could win yet, would make me a little gun shy as well.

classic scare tactics.

Just like the USSR scaring the west that if they don't assist it, a civil war will break out, and all kinds of criminals get russian nukes real cheap.

Has any of that happenned? nope.

[Eli]

The HAMAS claimed responsibility too. Claiming that the terrorist was an Imam in a mosque.

This means that another suicide bomber is at loose around Jerusalem.

In addition, there is a hot warning about an attack in Tel Aviv.

[Sirotnikov]

Update: 18 people dead.

Ok, according to my knowledge of Sharon, IDF will kill several Hamas and IJ leaders by tommorow noon.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin


He can't. It would mean civil war which he will lose. Arafat will just keep sheltering and supplying the terrorists in hopes that one day the Jews will get sick of it and sign away more and more of their birth right.

its not at all clear he will lose. Especially not if funds for them are cut off.