This ought to piss off the lefties.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Odin
Did you guy's hear me? Democratic Socialists and Libertarians are both liberals. Conservatives are Stalinists, Fascists, Monarchists, Christian Democrats (like the US Republicans), etc.

Have you ever taken a PoliSci class? Stalinists are most certainly not conservatives! Stalinists are radical leftists!!

Furthest Right (Reactionary Right)- These people want to return society to a previous social order. The classical example is the monarchists who opposed Republican France and wanted to restore the French Monarchy.

Moderate Right (Conservative)- These people believe society as it currently exists is mostly as good as we can make it. They agree that certain small changes need to be made but believe these changes should occur slowly so as not to upset the apple cart.

Moderates (Centrists)- These people believe that moderate changes need to occur in society but that these changes can be spread out over some length of time and that fundamentally the basic system is sound.

Moderate Left (Progressives)- These people believe that very sizeable changes need to occur in society and that society should adopt extensive new methods in order to quickly achieve this goal. They still believe these changes can occur with in the system but they would like to see changes occur as quickly as possible.

Far Left (Radical Left)- These people believe that the system is fundamentally flawed and that society must be immediately and radically reordered. The changes they advocate are so radical that they believe they can only be brought about through armed revolution.

* Note that everybody except for the reactionary believes that society has problems and must change in order to meet these problems. The main point of disagreement is the extent of the changes and how quickly those changes need to occur.

In addition to the generic Left-Right spectrum there are also several influential political ideologies:

Communist- All means of productions no matter how small should be owned by the state and then distributed to the people in a manner which makes everyone exactly the same economically.

Socialist- All major means of production, especially industrial production, should be owned by the state but minor means of production can and should remain privately owned.

Fascism- The nation is the paramount concern because it embodies the will and the desires of the people. All industry should be privately owned but organized, via government regulation, in a manner which best suits the needs of the state. The fascist believes that private ownership is the most efficient arrangement and that the state's job is to effectively focus productive output to achieve national goals.

Laisez Faire Capitalist- Private enterprise is the best and most efficient means to achieve wide spread economic prosperity. Further more, excess government regulations hampers private enterprise and distorts the free market thus retarding economic growth and harming the nations economic advancement. Therefor, the government should refrain from excessive interference with the market and should only curb the worst abuses while trying to keep taxes as low as possible.

[Dom Pedro II]

So then by that definition, fascism isn't far right...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Moderate Left (Progressives)- These people believe that very sizeable changes need to occur in society and that society should adopt extensive new methods in order to quickly achieve this goal. They still believe these changes can occur with in the system but they would like to see changes occur as quickly as possible.

I might want to say that I'm this, and I thought I was this, but based on this description, I'm not sure.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is and it isn't. Fascism is very strange in that it takes from the far right, the far left, and comes up with sludge .

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
So then by that definition, fascism isn't far right...

Fascism is as far right as you can get without being a reactionary. The main point of Fascism is the state's relationship to productive industry.

[Odin]

Have you ever taken a PoliSci class? Stalinists are most certainly not conservatives! Stalinists are radical Leftists!

Not really, but my history teacher let me borrow his college PoliSci textbook and I learned a lot of interesting things (such as the distinction between a political state and a nation). I consider Stalinists conservative because they oppose democracy, which I see as a important part of liberalism. Just because they are socialists doesn't make them liberals and vice versa. although this is not technically correct, the French revolution was between pro-republic and pro-monarchy, setting a precident that democracy or anarchy is "Radical" and absolutism is "Reactionary".

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MrFun
I might want to say that I'm this, and I thought I was this, but based on this description, I'm not sure.

Examples of typical Progressive ideas are national health care, state sponsored retirement payments for the elderly, and the things of this nature. They represent a fairly major shift in a section of the social order but this shift is still achieved by using the system and not through revolution.

I am of course generalizing but sometimes you must generalize in order to see the big picture. In each country the politics varies slightly but the over all left-Right spectum is fairly consistent.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin


An example of a typical Progressive idea is national health care, state sponsored retirement payments for the elderly, and the things of this nature.

I am of course generalizing but sometimes you must generalize in order to get see the big picture. In each country the politics varies slightly but the over all left-Right spectum is fairly consistent.

I see -- sounds like I would support some of the ideas of moderate Progressive, but not everything.

Such are the problems that arise when we have such categories.

[Dom Pedro II]

But this doesn't make any sense... Fascism wasn't reactionary... fascism was radical.

[Odin]

Oerdin, according to the definition you posted Fascism is Radical Left.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
But this doesn't make any sense... Fascism wasn't reactionary... fascism was radical.

Facism is Radical RIGHT. Reactionary Righties are Monarchists.

Oligarchies can either be Reationary Left (USSR) or Reactionary Right.

[Dom Pedro II]

See, that's how I'd define it too...

[Berzerker]

Laisez Faire Capitalist- Private enterprise is the best and most efficient means to achieve wide spread economic prosperity. Further more, excess government regulations hampers private enterprise and distorts the free market thus retarding economic growth and harming the nations economic advancement. Therefor, the government should refrain from excessive interference with the market and should only curb the worst abuses while trying to keep taxes as low as possible.

That's close enough.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Odin
Oerdin, according to the definition you posted Fascism is Radical Left.

No. If you noticed I distinctly broke apart political ideologies from the Left-Right Spectrum. The reason I did that is that some of the political ideologies do not fit neatly into the traditional two demensional spectrum. these pead several Political Scientists to create three (triangular) sided, four sided (diamond shaped), and even 3D cube shaped political spectrums. The goal of all of these spectrums was to take a complex idea (politics) and to reduce it to a simple idea which everyone can grasp (a spectrum); the problem is (as Imran said) some ideologies take from both the left and the right and thus are bastards to catagorize.

Out of convention Facism is normally defined as Rightist since most of its political philosophy is a reaction to the post WW1 instability.

[Dom Pedro II]

But if you define rightist as being conservative or reactionary, then Fascism is not that...