This ought to piss off the lefties.

[Dom Pedro II]

I'm talking about both fraud and under-handedness... but as I said, I'm not just talking about the business world. I have little pity for someone who loses their shirt in the business world... it's not that it's because I assume that they're stupid or incompetent but rather just because they knew what they were getting into and if you lose its no one's fault but yours for going into it in the first place. Screwing consumers, investors, and the general public, on the other hand, is another matter.

But I mean an under-handedness in general... I mean, you want to talk about being "smart" there have been plenty of people in the world who have used bureaucracy and such to become very rich while doing nearly nothing and never even entering the business world... I'd say that's somebody who's pretty smart... of course, he and the crooked entrepeneur are equally both scum.

[Whaleboy]

I find it very hard to believe a liberal would take this view. this is pretty hardcore libertarian. ur letting all sorts of things in, sweatshops, indentured servitude? I mean damn

Again, im liberal in world view and moral view. I'm also a libertarian in a MAJORLY big way. Its hypocritical for liberalism to state that x is morally wrong or whatever, or that it has the interests of that person at heart, even though they contradict. Again thats why im an intellectual liberal and a cognetive relativist.

In terms of sweatshops etc, well it sucks imo, but hey if people want to sign for it, who the hell am I (the government) to stop them? If they can prove theyre being forced into it, slavery etc, then thats crossing a line. See the Mill Limit.

[Dom Pedro II]

Elijiah, one's open-mindedness and acceptance of other beliefs is not defined by whether one is liberal or conservative... that's just stereotyping.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
I'm talking about both fraud and under-handedness... but as I said, I'm not just talking about the business world. I have little pity for someone who loses their shirt in the business world... it's not that it's because I assume that they're stupid or incompetent but rather just because they knew what they were getting into and if you lose its no one's fault but yours for going into it in the first place. Screwing consumers, investors, and the general public, on the other hand, is another matter.

But I mean an under-handedness in general... I mean, you want to talk about being "smart" there have been plenty of people in the world who have used bureaucracy and such to become very rich while doing nearly nothing and never even entering the business world... I'd say that's somebody who's pretty smart... of course, he and the crooked entrepeneur are equally both scum.

ok I can vent w/ u. I really really hate the heads of large non profit organizations. they are the biggest leeches in the history of humanity. they are the ultimate examples of lil work lotsa reward.

[Verto]

[sarcasm] Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder. [/sarcasm]

I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence.

Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants.

And I don't see how patriotism and sympathy are mutually exclusive.

Maybe you are insecure with your political orientation, and have to boost your self-esteem by doing this.

[Whaleboy]

Um... elijah, I think the man that can come up with an idea that many people 'buy into' (so to speak) IS smarter and more intelligent than some elitist ivory tower type with a high IQ and philosophically inclined.

See, I would never say that. I would say he is better at business/marketting than others. I would not say he is more smarter or more intelligent, he may well be thick as **** at other stuff. You're viewing smartness through very tinted glasses.

many other liberals on this site who are not relativists

You mean the hypocrites?

[Dom Pedro II]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Um... elijah, I think the man that can come up with an idea that many people 'buy into' (so to speak) IS smarter and more intelligent than some elitist ivory tower type with a high IQ and philosophically inclined.

I still don't see that as being a qualifier as one's intelligence... Neither is a qualifier for intelligence. Just because someone is a teacher does not mean they're less intelligent than someone who is after money... not everyone is interested only in monetary gain. Similarly, being a teacher doesn't make you any more intelligent because just because you have tenure and read lots of books doesn't mean you're any better than the street performers who are busting their asses for cash and are taking their business some place.

The ultimate point: To each his own.

[Whaleboy]

Elijiah, one's open-mindedness and acceptance of other beliefs is not defined by whether one is liberal or conservative... that's just stereotyping.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

One argues about concepts of course, but when one applies them to a person, its more of a cocktail.

[Imran Siddiqui]

See, I would never say that. I would say he is better at business/marketting than others. I would not say he is more smarter or more intelligent, he may well be thick as **** at other stuff. You're viewing smartness through very tinted glasses.

Likewise. Your tinted glasses show 'intelligence' as what liberal 'thinkers' do, but NOT what conservative 'businessmen' do. You believe it takes more intelligence to write a book than it does to build a company from nothing to a major world player. This is your own tinted glasses view.

I'll say it again and again, Bill Gates is smarter than Alan Dershowitz.

[Dom Pedro II]

Originally posted by Verto
[sarcasm] Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder. [/sarcasm]

I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence.

Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants.

Everybody needs a philosophy, and almost everyone has a philosophy... that goes for businessmen too.

And Republicans aren't all businessmen... I mean issues like abortion and prayer in school have nothing to do with pragmatism but rather rest on an abstract concepts of God and such. This is a philosophy. Just because its borrowed and not built entirely from scratch makes it any less so.

And what exactly do you define as an intellectual? There have been lots of intellectual leaders in this country... and as for "self-proclaimed" philosophical giants... why? because they think they're know whats best? What conservative doesn't? Who doesn't period?

You mean the hypocrites?

elijiah, again, I ask you, what does one's political orientation have to do with relativism or open-mindedness?

[Whaleboy]

Yes, it must be nice to let the conservatives do all the real work necessary, while you meditate and ponder.

Its such a sweet deal!

I will agree that liberals tend to be more philosophical than conservatives. This is not, IMO, intelligence

Strictly, true. However, I have yet to find a philosophical person who has seemed less clever than anyone else of any other profession! Seriously, league of own kind of thing, but yes you are right objectively, I have my subjective views, and they sound better .

Second of all, I do not think that government should be left in the hands of the intellectuals. All that is doing is replacing the true nobility with some self-proclaimed philosophical giants

I believe in democracy to a point. Too much, then the democracy fallacy applies, where majority opinion is treated as a source of "truth" or a valid basis for a decision where that is not the case. Besides, I'd rather have economists, philosophers, scientists, sociologists etc in charge than lay people who happen to be popular.

And I don't see how patriotism and sympathy are mutually exclusive

Patriotism, psychologically, is a means of defining ones own group, your banner to flock to etc, because its too demanding to tolerate all, always, particularly when they contradict you. Hence the weakening of american philosophical post modernism after 9/11.

Maybe you are insecure with your political orientation, and have to boost your self-esteem by doing this.

I have no political orientation, because that notion is insufficient for me. Nonetheless, if you have to continue resorting to ad hominems, can I take thus inferior reasoning as a consession in the debate?

DP:

[Imran Siddiqui]

However, I have yet to find a philosophical person who has seemed less clever than anyone else of any other profession!

Easy .

Agathon (or any other philosophy dude) vs. MtG

Nonetheless, if you have to continue resorting to ad hominems, can I take thus inferior reasoning as a consession in the debate?

Does this mean you conceeded in your first post?!

[Dom Pedro II]

Argh! Look, just because the mainstream Republican party politicians may not be the most free-thinking group in the world does not mean that conservatives as a whole are this way.

Conservatives (individual citizens) are a broad range of people... so are liberals.

The point is that you can't use conservatism and liberalism as the qualifier for who thinks more and is more intellectual. It just doesn't work. Liberalism and conservatism are not things which one DOES that requires brain-power. It would be as though saying believing in Christianity is harder than Islam. You just believe it!

[Whaleboy]

Likewise. Your tinted glasses show 'intelligence' as what liberal 'thinkers' do, but NOT what conservative 'businessmen' do.

The word intelligence shouldnt be interpreted in the familial sense. I do not see liberal inteligence or whatever as generic intelligence. As myself and DP said, to each, his own.

I'll say it again and again, Bill Gates is smarter than Alan Dershowitz.

And Linus Torvalds is smarter than Bill Gates . jk

eljiah, again, I ask you, what does one's political orientation have to do with relativism or open-mindedness?

Because moral and cognetive relativism is essentially tolerance of other views. Liberalism is fundamentally based on relativism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dom: Very good post. I do agree, of course. Intelligence is something different than simply political preference. There are many smart conservatives and many smart liberals and there are many dumb ones.