The problem with Socialism

[monkspider]

I would offer to trade you countries Pekka, but Finland is too cold, and I don't speak Finnish.

[Pekka]

Oh great, an army of 'I have it so much worse'. Who are the whiners now?

If you have it bad, then get your butt out of there. Come here for example.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by paiktis22
I'm sorry, could I just spontaniously combust now?

You people have one of the highest living standard in the world. Your social democratic welfare is a role model for Europe (yeah despite its problems) and sure every country has its problems but at least dont complain in front of us!

I sincerely believe you wouldnt last an hour in our countries. Im amazed we ourselves manage to survive.

It needs to be sustained, and I don't think it can be without serious change. There's a big difference from the days of stereotype (50s to early 70s) and now. There are less people working and more people who could work who don't. And Sweden isn't so much ahead of Europe as falling behind.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ah Pekka... I invite you for just a week in Greece. But you'll have to live like the avergae Greek. Running off and trying to fend off huge bureoacracy and psychotic employees in public services... trying to penetrate one of europe's ugliest, most polluted and dense populated cities, operating in a society where the "social contract" (i hope you know what I mean) is NOT a part of the social collective consciousness, where the average pay is half of that of finland but the taxes are about the same, where getting a job is mainly based on who your daddy knows and not on your degrees or expertise, where corruption reigns supreme and everyone's dreaming of getting the hell out of here and then we can talk.

You'll go back screaming to your little Finland kissing the ground the moment you arrive at the custums

[Pekka]

paiktis22, *SShhh* People in Iraq might hear that... they have it worse than you do.

Get my point?

[Bereta_Eder]

No I don't actually. Sure the Iraquis have it worse and sure the comparison with Iraq only proves my point

[Pekka]

Sure it proves your point, but it also proves my point .

If something is not working like it is supposed to work, why shouldn't we then go ahead and try to make it better for ourselves? It's not like it's an international affair, where we must consider the ones doing worse and then feel bad about ourselves trying to improve. It has got nothing to do with it, and if we always thought that way, then we will never amount to anything great.

And when we are doing better and better ourselves, we also have a better position to help the ones that don't have it so good.

[Bereta_Eder]

Of course. But to whine is still too provocative

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Ah Pekka... I invite you for just a week in Greece. But you'll have to live like the avergae Greek. Running off and trying to fend off huge bureoacracy and psychotic employees in public services... trying to penetrate one of europe's ugliest, most polluted and dense populated cities, operating in a society where the "social contract" (i hope you know what I mean) is NOT a part of the social collective consciousness, where the average pay is half of that of finland but the taxes are about the same, where getting a job is mainly based on who your daddy knows and not on your degrees or expertise, where corruption reigns supreme and everyone's dreaming of getting the hell out of here and then we can talk.

You'll go back screaming to your little Finland kissing the ground the moment you arrive at the custums

So come along, as an EU citizen you shouldn't have much of a problem immigrating. But what you're saying is true in a sense. I'm amazed how well the beaurocracy works here sometimes, except of course those dealing with (higher) education. Then suddenly it's chaos, everyone's unreachable, phones are blocked and students are kicked off their courses for no reason, and so on. I'm sure I promised not to rant too much above, I keep forgetting...

[Pekka]

You can take it as whining.. I admit, sometimes I sound like a whining little *****. I might be too passionate when I start putting my fingers to the keyboard and think of every situation where I have been treated unfair .

But still, I think my points are not whining. I'm not whining about my personal situation. That would be whining. I'm attacking our system.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Kitschum


So come along, as an EU citizen you shouldn't have much of a problem immigrating. But what you're saying is true in a sense. I'm amazed how well the beaurocracy works here sometimes, except of course those dealing with (higher) education. Then suddenly it's chaos, everyone's unreachable, phones are blocked and students are kicked off their courses for no reason, and so on. I'm sure I promised not to rant too much above, I keep forgetting...

neway for an american to become norwegian? cuz that'd make a great backup plan.

[Pekka]

yavoon, I just had a great idea for a movie. Two guys from different situations and different parts of the world meet in the internet. They chat a lot, and then they get the idea to change places. They're pretty lonely, so their families will not notice a thing. They look alike, and then they have some plastic surgery or what ever to make it even more convicing. Then they just simply meet, exchange passports, jobs etc etc, the whole nine yards, and then the movie would focus on both of their lives now.. it could have some funny moments, or be a total comedy, or then it can be more serious film. Damn, I think this is a great idea for a movie.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by yavoon


neway for an american to become norwegian? cuz that'd make a great backup plan.

Dunno about Norway, but I hear it can be tricky coming to Sweden from outside of the EU/EEA. If you can arrange for a job before arriving you might be able to arrange something. But no guarantees, since they're pretty strict even on immigrants coming here to work (that is what you were planning on, right? ), for some retarded reason.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Kitschum


Dunno about Norway, but I hear it can be tricky coming to Sweden from outside of the EU/EEA. If you can arrange for a job before arriving you might be able to arrange something. But no guarantees, since they're pretty strict even on immigrants coming here to work (that is what you were planning on, right? ), for some retarded reason.

well I figure if I ever get tired of the grind. I could sell my stuff, get a nest egg. move to norway pickup welfare. sure I couldn't fly aroudn the world, but I could drive places! and there are cute women up there right? lotsa beer. lil cold but I'll manage.

[Pekka]

yavoon, I don't think it's that simple to come in and start picking up welfare . If it was, then we'd be full of foreigners doing it.

If you're serious about it, it would give you a good start to a) learn the language at least so you can survive b) learn whole lots of stuff about the country you're going in, they always like it when you know a lot about them c) try to get connections there before going, internet is now good tool for that.. you never know who does what and can help you out, naturally because you're such a nice guy, you'll return that favour nicely d) learn the laws and the rules about this, so you can find what suits you e) get yourself that nest egg. Helps when you have some money, don't come broke f) if possible, it's best to have a job ready. They'll be able to help you out with lots of stuff like a place to live or at least give you advices. People like you because you are not coming to spend anyones money, but working hard and contributing to the society.

Those are few things that will help you along the way.