Indisputable Abortion FACTS:

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Asuka


Exactly. The discussion simply makes us look ugly because the anti-abortionists don't think about the mother and father, plus all surrounding people, like we do. It's like they don't exit and that the fetus has all rights to be inside the mother's womb and she can't decide what to do about it. I think it's the time to ignore their moral riff raff and talk about more practical matters, like how it affects the life of the mother and the society.

I like how the pro abortionists have painted themselves out as completely amoral ppl. its quite amusing.

the hyperbole u use in the post is quaint. but honestly do u think it stands up against any inspection? or are u just trying to rally the troops?

[Rasbelin]

Re: Q

Originally posted by Azazel

I do consider it. And I think that killing the unborn child is not the most ethical solution.

Everything can not be always solved in a manner that is ethically and morally correct in the mind of all people. It's simply not possible. Think about your dear Israel. Have you always solved all Middle East related in a manner that you ca always find correct in ethical terms? Nope. So is the abortion issue different? Nope.

[st_swithin]

There's always an answer to every question; however, the correctness of the answer or the question is always open to interpretation.

War is not the answer. Was Afghanistan the question?

[Az]

Originally posted by Asuka
Exactly. The discussion simply makes us look ugly because the anti-abortionists don't think about the mother and father, plus all surrounding people, like we do.

snore. Somehow, I think that the mother and father that are responsible for their actions, and don't actually get killed are only second in line. Esp., if we provide good enviroment for infants that would allow them to make the post natal period easier. This would be a truly good solution, not abortion.

It's like they don't exit and that the fetus has all rights to be inside the mother's womb and she can't decide what to do about it. I think it's the time to ignore their moral riff raff and talk about more practical matters, like how it affects the life of the mother and the society.

oh wow. so let us see how it affects society: it creates troubled families. that's pretty much it. This can be solved by educating people before this situation is achieved by practicing the safest sex possible, and allowing measures such as morning after pills, that work for 5 days, as well as generally bettering the societal status for young families with children. You don't have to resort to abortion.

[st_swithin]

Hey! I've got an idea! Let's rename 'abortion' to 'eviction'!

Then everyone's allowed to do whatever they need to 'evict' and unwanted 'tenant'!!

[Az]

a) this is basically and ad hominem. You're trying a illegitimate flanking maneuver by attacking my country, a topic which is hardly related to this discussion. I might also point out that this is a move of desperation.
b) I'll answer it anyway: In any time when the government of Israel is making an unethical move or adopting an unethical strategy, I'd be against it, as I was numerous times before.
c) The Israeli policy is a very wide field that, although, can be summed by being positive or negative, includes a wide variety of issues, thousands of them, which are often unrelated. We're discussing a very narrow cluster of problems. We can discuss such an issue and attempt to reach an agreement over it's entirety in the frame of a single discussion, unlike in the case of Israeli policy.

Now, back on topic: You know that it is possible to almost completly prevent the need for abortion. Don't you think it's worth to make such an attempt, or are those unborn not worth to make the effort for?

[Az]

Originally posted by st_swithin
Hey! I've got an idea! Let's rename 'abortion' to 'eviction'!

Then everyone's allowed to do whatever they need to 'evict' and unwanted 'tenant'!!

I guess if you'd be cruising in your private deepwater submarine at the depth of 3000 ft, and you'd find a stowaway, you'd think it's ok to throw it into the crushing pressure of the ocean, right?

[Atahualpa]

Re: Q

Originally posted by Azazel
Actually, When I find the actions of my govt. unethical, I do point it out. I'd rather not have that hostility, but I hardly think that my government is the sole coulprit.

okay nothing else did I expect

I don't know what exactly are you talking about. You've said :

Besides, I'd say you shouldnt judge by others what you do support and what not.

as I understood it, you've said that I cannot judge others by my own ethical standards. I've claimed it to be rediculous.

nay! you misunderstood me! I said: dont think the abortion side has the better arguments when it looked like I was just making gross generalization. Or otherwise said: Just because I am an idiot and cant write properly should not influence you in your descision which side you support.
I hope this comes clear this time

This is not very useful.

yeah yeah
And I think I can remember it was you, who jumped in a sort of anti-usa thread with the words (approximately): "I have to jump in support for the us when there are so many against it"

Why any payment whatsoever? why is he more responsible than the woman? Personally, I think they must be held responsible, and not just kill the child because they want to.

more responsible????? 50% I'd say. Doesnt that include some payment?
But what do you do with two parents and neither does like what they just produced. Would it be good for the rest of the world to let it out?
After all we all are affected when uneducated little brags swarm our society.
When one doesnt like the child and it absolutely doesnt fit in his/her life. Actually what sense is there that the child is alive. And I think its better to put an end to the story right after the first sentence. And not by attempted suicide from the child in 20 years because it wasnt loved and always felt it was not wanted. Okay thats a scenario I admit, still not taken from so far away.

I think that if abortion would be allowed, which personally, I think it's wrong after the first couple of days ( You people had unprotected sex, well, GO CHECK YOURSELVES! Why wait?! ) The rules should be the same for men and women. They should have equal saying in the future of the baby, not just the mother as it is now.

Hmm I am not so much afraid of the situation that the mother decides. I think women have much more responsibility than man and I think they can quite come up to that. And for unprotected sex, well you know yes it is a sad story that they get pregnant three times and do abortion everytime. But then, can you, because a few people abuse the system, deny that to all the others who dont mean wrong? Who are just unexperienced, uneducated what the hell not. I always get critized when I make an opinion of the US out of a few idiots. Why is accepted here?
Would you stop the development of TNT if you could because it can be used to kill people as well as is useful in mining business. Would you stop the development of the car if you could because there are numerous people dying every year? Or stop airplanes because they are used for military purposes as well.
But you, or maybe not you, but other anti-abortionists, would stop abortion because some people use it for their joy, or do not show enough respect for this descision. I also dont like people who dont show respect for the descision to do abortion, but I am not denying the possibility to other persons just because of some idiots.

No. we have to have the easy way, teach them about safe sex, etc. etc. If all of that wasn't enough, well, TOUGH. I guess we should forgive people that kill someone in a car accident, too.

Society is changing a lot around us. 20 years before was a different time. People have to cope with the situation. You cant expect that the whole sex education (which is soooo bad anyway) to become really effective anytime soon. Just ask your parents if they had this kind of stuff. I was in the generation where the whole thing started. It just takes its time and as it seems people get sexually mature very early and human density is rising. That I would say is a bad cocktail for early pregnancies and simple "censorship" of saying NO to abortion wont do the trick.

Noone says it's *plop*. This is just another reason to teach people to have sex responsibly.

exactly! but teaching takes time and meanwhile dissallowing abortion wont help the situation, would it?

unhealthy: Heavy disabilities, retardation, etc. This is not an easy question, btw.
why not for general usage? Because, once again, we're killing humans. Very young humans, of course, but remember how shocked we are when someone hurts a pregnant woman that causes miscarriage? We're obviously not shoked just because she was hit, because simply people being hit is, well, nothing special, sadly.

You are entering slippery ground
Heavy disabilities you would allow abortion its still a human though and there is no danger for the mother...
Of course I would support it too, though it does not fit with your "its a human after all so we cant kill it" argument so well.

For example I would be much in favor of finding parents who would adopt the baby right after being born. The contract to this would have to be signed before the baby would be born. There are so many parents nowadays that cannot have children and it cant be so difficult in running such a service.
Nevertheless you cannot cover 100% of the cases, but it would be a beginning to not stop abortion, but rather find solutions around it.

I think we should create a better world for the children that are destined to live in it. And that destiny the parents decide and not some biological faith. Its a human choice who should be our children, not a biological one. I wouldnt want to give up that control! Why would you?

ata

[st_swithin]

If it were easier to obtain a tubal ligation I would have done so the moment I was born. However, a much more invasive procedure is required to actually reach the ovaries.

In men, a tubal ligation can be done in an hour using only a local anaesthetic. Of course, most men staunchly REFUSE to be 'gelded' in this manner, since they often wish to brand everything that comes out of their d1cks with their name.

I would NEVER marry any man who wouldn't be willing to take one for the team - I mean, one hour and local pain killer, as opposed to general anaesthesia and an overnight stay in the hospital? Doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me. I'd have done it if our roles could be reversed.

Oh well, I'm stuck here in reality, where 'abortion' is illegal/immoral but eviction's totally cool if you're the landlord.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Zylka

As a matter of fact I respect Azazel for his opinion. Dont try to lay your words into my mouth. That doesnt help a serious discussion, even more when you are twisting them like you need them.

ata

Yet you simply enough said it is IMPOSSIBLE for any Israeli citizen to be an ethical person. Are you an ethical person? Are you standing up and shouting for every single injustice your government commits? Out of the two of you, are YOU the spotless ethical one - and the only one allowed to an opinion in this matter?

...because that's what you've so far said, whether or not you drag me into proving (with your own statements) that I'm not putting words into your mouth. Ask nicely, and I will do so!

I knew you would just use it to talk me into resentiments against isreali citizens
I really hate the way you are trying to underestimate things on me, could you just stop that?

This is not something solely to isreali citizens. And I also added that I am not ethical as well when I just ignore the actions of our executive against black people recently. Didnt you read?

I think en gros its mostly impossible to live a real spotless ethical life. Its hardly possible, for you, for Azazel and for me. Nevertheless I think we should try to be more ethical, but ethics is a matter quite complex and it is very open and very gray. So I am full of respect for people that try to be ethical. Nevertheless in such a discussion it seems a bit off place when you are laying sooo much weight on it. More weight than your ethic can carry I think.

ata

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by st_swithin
In men, a tubal ligation can be done in an hour using only a local anaesthetic. Of course, most men staunchly REFUSE to be 'gelded' in this manner, since they often wish to brand everything that comes out of their d1cks with their name.

[Az]

Re: Re: Q

Originally posted by Atahualpa
nay! you misunderstood me! I said: dont think the abortion side has the better arguments when it looked like I was just making gross generalization. Or otherwise said: Just because I am an idiot and cant write properly should not influence you in your descision which side you support.
I hope this comes clear this time

oh, thanks for clearing that up.

yeah yeah
And I think I can remember it was you, who jumped in a sort of anti-usa thread with the words (approximately): "I have to jump in support for the us when there are so many against it"

oh no, I was very much protecting my POV, that is, " USA is wrong and often evil, but I don't think that Bush is worse than Saddam, and likes to eat muslim children for lunch"

more responsible????? 50% I'd say. Doesnt that include some payment?

What I mean is:
If you allow the mother to have abortion on demand, that is to lose the baby, isn't the father entitled to the same right? And suppose if we agree that a force abortion is too much of an invasive procedure, wouldn't it be more fair if the father at least would have the right not to pay alimony? Personally, I don't think than any of them has the right to an abortion after, say, a week after the conception, but if we're talking abortion, fair is fair, right?

But what do you do with two parents and neither does like what they just produced. Would it be good for the rest of the world to let it out?
After all we all are affected when uneducated little brags swarm our society.

that's precisely why we must educate people more more more about how to protect themselves from these situations.

When one doesnt like the child and it absolutely doesnt fit in his/her life. Actually what sense is there that the child is alive. And I think its better to put an end to the story right after the first sentence. And not by attempted suicide from the child in 20 years because it wasnt loved and always felt it was not wanted. Okay thats a scenario I admit, still not taken from so far away.

Actually, there are plenty of scenarios that are taken from happy Hollywood movies, and end up great, but, again, this is not the case. I believe that we should shift the scenario bell curve in the direction of happy endings, but I don't really think that an abortion is the way to do it. There are so many ways given to people to prevent this kind of stuff from happening: Condoms, Pills, morning after pills... All they have to do is use them. And I am not even talking about the, albeit more difficult, but generally more positive, even in other aspects of society, such as more respect for mothers, and yound families.

Hmm I am not so much afraid of the situation that the mother decides. I think women have much more responsibility than man and I think they can quite come up to that.

That's sexism, my friend.

And for unprotected sex, well you know yes it is a sad story that they get pregnant three times and do abortion everytime. But then, can you, because a few people abuse the system, deny that to all the others who dont mean wrong? Who are just unexperienced, uneducated what the hell not. I always get critized when I make an opinion of the US out of a few idiots. Why is accepted here?

actually, most of the people practice safe, protected sex, and don't get knocked up/ knock girls up. The people that have to do the abortion are the minority. I am not calling them criminals. It's very much the system's fault they are uneducated about the issue. That's why I say the system must change, and extensively educate them on the issue.

Would you stop the development of TNT if you could because it can be used to kill people as well as is useful in mining business. Would you stop the development of the car if you could because there are numerous people dying every year? Or stop airplanes because they are used for military purposes as well.

Not a valid comparison, and you know it. Abortion has no other purpose but to abort babies. Even guns have more varied uses. I am not against abortions on a basis of "hey, they're doing it all the time", I am against them on the basis "hey, they're killing small babies".

But you, or maybe not you, but other anti-abortionists, would stop abortion because some people use it for their joy, or do not show enough respect for this descision. I also dont like people who dont show respect for the descision to do abortion, but I am not denying the possibility to other persons just because of some idiots.

once again, you're not attacking me, but the strawman that doesn't even stand on one ground with me.

Society is changing a lot around us. 20 years before was a different time. People have to cope with the situation. You cant expect that the whole sex education (which is soooo bad anyway) to become really effective anytime soon. Just ask your parents if they had this kind of stuff. I was in the generation where the whole thing started. It just takes its time and as it seems people get sexually mature very early and human density is rising. That I would say is a bad cocktail for early pregnancies and simple "censorship" of saying NO to abortion wont do the trick.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG! AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO CHANGE!

exactly! but teaching takes time and meanwhile dissallowing abortion wont help the situation, would it?

I am not talking about immideate measures, but on the final destination.

You are entering slippery ground
Heavy disabilities you would allow abortion its still a human though and there is no danger for the mother...
Of course I would support it too, though it does not fit with your "its a human after all so we cant kill it" argument so well.

I've never said "it's human after all, so we can't kill it". I don't think there is some inherent sanctity to life. I do think that all that can be done to prevent so much suffering to come to the world has to be done. One day, hopefully soon, it will be genetic engineering. Nowadays, it's abortion, sadly.

For example I would be much in favor of finding parents who would adopt the baby right after being born. The contract to this would have to be signed before the baby would be born. There are so many parents nowadays that cannot have children and it cant be so difficult in running such a service.
Nevertheless you cannot cover 100% of the cases, but it would be a beginning to not stop abortion, but rather find solutions around it.

Why this insistance on abortion? You've seen there are ways to eliminate the need in the vast majority of them.

I think we should create a better world for the children that are destined to live in it. And that destiny the parents decide and not some biological faith. Its a human choice who should be our children, not a biological one. I wouldnt want to give up that control! Why would you?

ata

That's the point. No one looses control! You can still enjoy safe non-reproductive sex, can't you? But the fact that a pair of people has done something terribly foolish, and then for a couple of days didn't do anything about it is just appalling, isn't it? Why should a now existing child, though small, but not substantially differing from the born lump of flash some 6 month later have to pay for it?

[st_swithin]

Yeah, Dad, if you'd just kept it in your pants or gotten the operation, none of this would EVER have happened.

I still love you, but I'm done paying the piper. You're gonna have to foot the bill on this one.

[st_swithin]

Yeah, Dad, if you'd just kept it in your pants or gotten the operation, none of this would EVER have happened.

I still love you, but I'm done paying the piper. You're gonna have to foot the bill on this one.

[Az]

Originally posted by st_swithin
If it were easier to obtain a tubal ligation I would have done so the moment I was born. However, a much more invasive procedure is required to actually reach the ovaries.

In men, a tubal ligation can be done in an hour using only a local anaesthetic. Of course, most men staunchly REFUSE to be 'gelded' in this manner, since they often wish to brand everything that comes out of their d1cks with their name.

I would NEVER marry any man who wouldn't be willing to take one for the team - I mean, one hour and local pain killer, as opposed to general anaesthesia and an overnight stay in the hospital? Doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me. I'd have done it if our roles could be reversed.

Personally, I can't hardly understand a person who doesn't want to have children, but that's a different question. I wouldn't want to pass through this procedure for a very simple reason: Why the hell would I want to narrow my future choices? What if suddenly you change your mind? It's weird, really.

Oh well, I'm stuck here in reality, where 'abortion' is illegal/immoral but eviction's totally cool if you're the landlord.

I guess cool to kill illegal immigrants too, as well as throw stowaways overboard.