It's all about oppurtunity...

[Velociryx]

Japher...yep...I know the type! I keep telling myself I'm not cut from that mold, but we'll see....I might surprise myself after all, but I'm doubtin' it....soon as it's feasable, I'm quittin' and playing computer games all night/cruising in the boat all day!

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And yes, I quite agree....please stop the madness! But tell me, if you disagree so completely with the two steps I outlined for you.....tell me why? Where's the flaw in the logic? I'm curious to hear your answer.

-=Vel=-

I don't disagree with your plan. I just don't think it backs up your claim that the system is fair. One, not everyone who follows it will be happy with the results. Two your income, wealth, and socioeconomic status also determines your success, so that destroys your claim that such a plan would make things fair.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Or is it "elitist" to enjoy the fruits of my labor, while you do not enjoy the fruits of my labor?

How 'bout enjoying the fruits of your own labor and leave mine alone?

-=Vel=-

When we do the same work and get the same pay I will leave your fruit alone.

[Velociryx]

Kid, again, YOU are the one who keeps saying that everybody should be equal (or, mostly equal). That's you, not me....I think you are confusing yourself.

I've been arguing from the get-go that people are not equal, and will NEVER be equal. Thus, opportunity will never be equal, nor will outcome. And it shouldn't be.

Nonetheless, EVERYONE (and yes, I mean everyone) who has a job and participates in the economy can succeed by following those two steps.

Does it mean that they will find ultimate fulfillment? Of course not, we're simply talking about making gains in the economic system. If material wealth is something you enjoy (or, god forbid, something you totally define yourself by) then it's probably important to you, and THAT is how you go about it.

That's all.

Nothing about fair or unfair, nothing about greater or lesser opportunity. Only that spending less than you earn and buying things that increase in value WILL (every single time) increase your economic well being.

If you aspire for more, then work harder at spending less than you earn, or work harder at earning more, and educate yourself about buying things that increase in value over time.

You set the limits. You decide where you want to be.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Kid:
When we do the same work and get the same pay I will leave your fruit alone.

No, actually, you'll leave it alone right now. Odds are extremely likely that we will never find ourselves in the same occupation, and unless you have fifteen years experience in the computer industry, we'll prolly not ever have the same pay, either.

Nonetheless, the fruits of my labor are my own....not yours.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No, actually, you'll leave it alone right now.

I won't

[Velociryx]

Kid, really? That'll be interesting to see.....

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid, again, YOU are the one who keeps saying that everybody should be equal (or, mostly equal). That's you, not me....I think you are confusing yourself.

I've been arguing from the get-go that people are not equal, and will NEVER be equal. Thus, opportunity will never be equal, nor will outcome. And it shouldn't be.

You are trying to justify the fact that people aren't treated equal. You are failing.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Nonetheless, EVERYONE (and yes, I mean everyone) who has a job and participates in the economy can succeed by following those two steps.

Does it mean that they will find ultimate fulfillment? Of course not, we're simply talking about making gains in the economic system. If material wealth is something you enjoy (or, god forbid, something you totally define yourself by) then it's probably important to you, and THAT is how you go about it.

That's all.

Nothing about fair or unfair, nothing about greater or lesser opportunity. Only that spending less than you earn and buying things that increase in value WILL (every single time) increase your economic well being.

If you aspire for more, then work harder at spending less than you earn, or work harder at earning more, and educate yourself about buying things that increase in value over time.

You set the limits. You decide where you want to be.

-=Vel=-

Like this. There is no point to your line of argument. No one really believes that everyone can become as rich as they care to. Capitalism can't even work like that even if it were possible. Capitalism depends on exploitation of a certain class. You are in a dream world.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid, really? That'll be interesting to see.....

All I have to do is vote Democrat to raise your taxes.

[Velociryx]

Oh Kid, you are a fun one to banter with!

Yes, I live in a dream world. The house I just bought? Figment of my imagination, obviously. The agent I've got scouting out duplexes and small condo outfits? Nope....he doesn't exist either.

I'm not a supremely talented or gifted individual. Just a regular workin' stiff from a blue collar background.

If I can do it, then yes, anybody can do it. It's not hard.

What does it take? Repeat after me:

1) Spend less than you earn
and
2) Buy things that increase in value over time

Mystifying, innit?

I'm not justifying anything, nor am I even making the attempt.

Mine is purely an economic explanation of the rules of the game, and those two (above) are the way you play if you want to get ahead, economically.

We can argue about fairness, opportunity levels, and all that junk till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the answer to getting ahead economically (regardless of what your current socioeconomic position is), is the EXACT same little two-step dance.

So....some people have more cards to play than others....big deal. It's still the same two steps.

Play the game or not. Your choice. The game don't care whether you participate or not. That's not "unfair," it just means you ain't playing.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I'm not justifying anything, nor am I even making the attempt.

Mine is purely an economic explanation of the rules of the game

Good I'm going to put this in my sig so that we won't have to debate the same thing over and over again. You tend to contradict yourself a lot.

[Japher]

Play the game or not. Your choice. The game don't care whether you participate or not. That's not "unfair," it just means you ain't playing.

Sheit or get of the pot... gotta love Clerks

[Velociryx]

Please feel free, tho I think what you're really saying is that I contradict you and your beliefs a good bit (and I do). My argument, however, is not contradictory in the least.

People aren't equal. Opportunities aren't equal. Outcomes aren't equal. They never have been (not even in your commie utopias that have been tried), and they never will be.

Play the game.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher




Sheit or get of the pot... gotta love Clerks

Clerks?

[Ming]

Originally posted by The Templar
You're 0-2 on the ad hominem Ming. I don't know alot about advertising, but I do know quite a bit about evolutionary psychology and cognitive science (cog sci was an important area of my dissertation work, and give a month or so to prepare, I could probably teach a grad level seminar on the subject). Yes, what I know about psychology in the ad business comes from a "few friends". A few friends who do psychological research in the ad business.

What was your degree in again, Ming?

For starters, mine is in advertising... and I lecture on the subject... What's your degree in? I'm glad you admit you don't know much about advertising, because you seem to be proving that fact every time you post.

And by the way... Many of my friends are doctors,
and they talk about their work all the time, but that doesn't make me an expert on it

But, the primary goal is preference formation. When is the last time you saw a "tombstone" ad that just anounced the introduction of a new product in blacktext on a white background? (And even if you did, the subtext would be "see our product is so good, no need for advertising".)

Oh, and reread my last post. It is impossible to seel people things they don't want - so the goal is to create the desire and nudge them towards your brand.

Thanks for admitting you were wrong before... when you said that advertising is to blame for fast food and whiney brats.
Fast Food is something that people already want... and advertising only helps nudge them toward a specific restaurant (as you so clearly state)... So blame the people that desire food that is bad for them, and blame parents for not being able to control their own children... Don't look stupid by blaming advertising... something you've even admitted does not have the power to do what you originally claimed it did.

It's funny to see somebody backpeddal like you have when you are caught mouthing off your usual rants that don't make any sense...

And it's even better when your later arguments prove how your earlier comments were totally in error.

Enjoy the fantasy land you live in