It's all about oppurtunity...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ming


No... that's not what I'm talking about.

You are correct when you say it depends on the goals they set. Some have become Doctors, Lawyers, Businessmen, Advertising Executives, and even just plain old happy Mothers... Some even come back to work at the club so that they can help others. When I say succeeded, it means they met the goals they set for themselves.

For some.. that meant being happy and raising a family in a safe place away from the hell they had to grow up in, and for others, it meant a career, or advanced degrees... it was a matter of they wanted. And they made the choices to make it happen. And no... it wasn't easy for them.

Most of them probably set realistic goals for themselves though. I'm sure.

[David Floyd]

But didn't Jesus say that if a man asks for your coat to give him your shirt as well? Isn't that what's right?

We've had this discussion before, and you know quite well that my position is that forcing someone to do what is right is wrong.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Most of them probably set realistic goals for themselves though. I'm sure.

Maybe your friends would... but these kids set goals THEY wanted to attain. They weren't limited in their thinking like you seem to be. The youth is the hope of the future, and these kids didn't limit their dreams.

And why should they... what do you consider "realistic" goals for them should be... waitress... nurse... bartender... or are you just looking down your nose at them. They have as much right to set goals as anybody else does. And they set their goals as high as they desired.

[Kidlicious]

Most people set their goals according to their opportunity. If they have the talent to be doctors then that would be a realistic goal as long as they are willing to work at it. Not everyone can become a doctor though. My dad tried to become a doctor and failed. He is a very smart person, and believes much like you about hard work. He couldn't get into med school so he became a nurse. He had every intention of becoming better off then he is, but he had to settle for less. He still works very hard and saves his money, but the opportunity just isn't there for him to reach his desired goals.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't want to spend my whole life making sacrifices so that I MIGHT end up with a little more savings, and I don't have to. That doesn't mean that I deserve to be poor.

If you are not willing to do what it takes to change your position then, yes, you do deserve exactly what you get. Harsh but true my friend.

Rich people don't have to make sacrifices to be rich. They just are.

That's a complete lie. 9 out of 10 American millionares created their fortune, as opposed to inheriting, in their own life time. That means they took chances, started their own company, invested, saved, and sacrificed to get where they are. It is very simple minded to just say "well, they're rich because they just are".

The fact that poor people have to work harder and save more to have the chance of ending their life with property makes the system unfair.

Life is unfair deal with it. The question is will you do something to make your situation better or will you just sit there whining about how unfair it all is and demand somebody give you something for nothing?

[Ming]

Originally posted by The Templar
Right now I work with an organization that provides legal assitance to poor and indigent civil litigants - especially in housing disputes - in the South (I mean "Downtown") Bronx. I believe that affordable and adequate housing is a real boon to families (and everybody else for that matter). I would also wager that test scores are higher when you can study in a rat-free environment.

At least you aren't all talk and no action... good for you.

No you weren't - you were trying to make an ad hominem attack along the lines of "so what do you do for the poor Mr. Socialist."

Yes.. I was... because many "socialists" talk a good game and do nothing about it. And it was only fair since you attacked first with your earlier holier than thou comments What you don't seem to understand is that some of us conservatives care too, and actually do something about it.

Then again, if anything is possible if I work for it, I guess I'll start right now in creating a communist majority in the US.

All power to you... of course I have no desire to see you succeed, but I totally respect somebody that not only sees a need a for change, but actually tries to do something about it instead of just whining like a stuck pig about how unfair things are.

BTW, I am a firm believer in hard work. I've worked pretty hard to achieve what I have. But, I see too many cases where people work their asses off only to get nowhere. And its not as if these hard working people are squandering their money - their paychecks from two or three jobs barely allow them to live month to month. I've seen it in New York, but I've also seen it in New Orleans (which is a very cheap place to live) and Austin (a moderatey priced place to live). If you want to talk about hard work equalling a comfortable standard of living, then capitalism is not your system.

Hard work is just a part of it... it's also about making the right choices to begin with. Many people see no answer but to work multiple dead end jobs to make ends meet.

Another person might still work those same dead end jobs, but at the same time, take some night or computer classes to get an education in something that will get them out of the trap.

I've never said that Capitalism is the perfect system... But it sure beat the hell out of all the alternatives to date. It gives you the "chance" to succeed... if people make the wrong choices... it's not the systems fault.
The system does make it harder for some people than others... but the chance is there.

I've seen many young kids from the worst and poorest section of the city walk into a building that they knew would keep them safe... and learn how they too had choices... and then make them... and then succeed.
They had to work hard... and a lot of people helped them along the way... but they had to take the first step, and then continue along a very difficult path.

[Maniac]

Albert Speer:

better schools possibly through privatization

I'm not familiar with US politics, but how could privatizing schools help those with little opportunities? Now I presume all education until university in the US is paid for by the government, and everyone can follow it freely. How would having to pay a private company for your education help the poor?

a greater emphasis on charity organizations

I'd argue that's exactly what's not needed. IMHO getting more opportunities shouldn't be based on some fortunate accidental charity by some wealthy dude, but on structural changes to the system, which automatically give the poor more chances to lift themselves up.

[Japher]

My dad tried to become a doctor and failed. He is a very smart person, and believes much like you about hard work. He couldn't get into med school so he became a nurse. He had every intention of becoming better off then he is, but he had to settle for less. He still works very hard and saves his money, but the opportunity just isn't there for him to reach his desired goals.

Did I miss something here? Sounds like he had the opportunity to become a doctor, but failed at that opportunity. What stopped him from applying again, or to more schools, or continue education and then apply again? Sounds to me like he gave up a dream that was not a dream at all, more of a hope than a desire...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If you are not willing to do what it takes to change your position then, yes, you do deserve exactly what you get. Harsh but true my friend.

If I had a significant chance to become a millionaire and still have time to spend it then I would. That would be a rational decision. I've weighed the costs and potential benefits of that and have determined that there is no significant chance of success. So are you telling me that because I have made a rational decision that I deserve less?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
Did I miss something here? Sounds like he had the opportunity to become a doctor, but failed at that opportunity. What stopped him from applying again, or to more schools, or continue education and then apply again? Sounds to me like he gave up a dream that was not a dream at all, more of a hope than a desire...

You are confusing the opportunity to try something with the opportunity to achieve something. Sure he could keep trying to become a doctor, most definitely unsuccessfully. He had a family so he set a more realistic goal for himself.

[Japher]

and you Kid, are confusing opportunity with success, or as you put it, opportunity to succeed... the only opportunity owed to any American is the opportunity to try and succeed.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
the only opportunity owed to any American is the opportunity to try and succeed.

Ok For that matter everyone in the world has equal opportunity.

[Japher]

You really think so?

[Japher]

You think he was denied the opportunity to become a doctor because he didn't get into Med School? On his first try? Why didn't he get in? Was because he was poor, rich, black, white?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
You really think so?

Yes, everyone has the opportunity to try. Everyone does NOT have the opportunity to make as much money as the richest person or even make anything near what the richest person makes.