Was Ronald Reagon that bad of a president?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


You're not really that bright there either, Fezzie...

Shut up... yes I am.. far brighter than you lot.

[Odin]

Ned, I don't think so.


Fez, here is some advice, ACT inteligent. Maybe you wouldn't be teased so much.

[Giancarlo]

Acting intelligent is good but a bit bland.. ought to act a bit colorful and humorous. Perhaps that is your problem?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Odin
Ned, I don't think so.


Fez, here is some advice, ACT inteligent. Maybe you wouldn't be teased so much.

Odin, I suspect you are not old enough to remember the 70's. What did you learn about it in school?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Ned
For those who believe in America, Ronald Reagan was a great president. Fot those who view America as the great evil, Ronald Reagan was a bad president because he restored American power and prestige.

For those of us who love America, Reagan was a terrible president. He began this horrible rollback of FDR's New Deal. You don't get any more American than FDR. Instead we end up with this regulation-free neolibertarian ideology. Yeah, insulate the corporations from the will of the people. Gee, and I though democracy was American.

Why, Ned, do you hate America so?

For those who remember the seventies, America was shaken to its foundation by the humiliation of Vietnam, by the betrayal and political corruption of a president, by the stupidity of his successor, and by a radical leftist anti-American president who blamed the American people for the failures of his presidency.

So after Reagan blew the **** our of Grenada we all felt so much better! Tell us another one.

America's honor, power and prestige were in severe decline. Its economy was a shambles due to wage price controls begun under Richard Nixon and continued with a vengeance with respect to oil and gas prices by an excessively anti-American Jimmy Carter. Communism was advancing across the globe and the Soviets were in Afghanistan. The Ayatollah Khomeini held our hostages. A former ally had become an enemy.

The Soviets were living on borrowed time due to their own incompetence. Good grief, Reagan merely benefitted from timing.

Jimmy Carter was not anti-American . What? Believing in and promoting human rights and democracy is anti-American? Those sound American to me. But supporting Pinchet and Galtieri (well, at least when the British weren't involved ) like Reagan was American? Chilean torturers hooking up car batteries to the testicles of left wing dissidents is American?

Khomeini!? Are you ****ing serious? Decades of CIA support of the Shah (and his policy of electrodes to nuts) made Iran our enemy.

Into this stepped Ronald Reagan who changed everything.

Funny you say that.

He fixed the economy by ending price controls and by reducing taxes. He invested in the military and stood up to the Soviet Union as no prior president had.

Right. Tell that to Kennedy - who faced off against the Soviets when they were still at the height of their power.

More like Reagan ruined the economy with deficits and overspending on military deterence. You know what I remember from the eighties? Japan taking over the market in chips and cars. Thanks Ron!

By the end of his presidency, the USSR was in total collapse and the Berlin Wall was about to fall. Ronald Reagan single-handedly rescued the United States from the chaos of the seventies and rescued the world from Communism.

Have another hit off the crack pipe! The Soviets were done by the late 70s. Reagan magnified their actual threat.

History will view Ronald Reagan as at least a critical president in the history United States and probably one of its greatest presidents due to his accomplishments.

Critical yes. Critical to the emergence of neoliberal dogma. Great?

[Odin]

Originally posted by Ned
Odin, I suspect you are not old enough to remember the 70's. What did you learn about it in school?

Kent State, My Lai Massacre, Watergate, OPEC shutting off the oil, Republicans blaming Carter for things that were not under his control, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism, Stagflation. My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

[Giancarlo]

Carter was a weak president.

My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

That's false and I proved that wrong. Your mother is mistaken or talking about herself. Reagan was better for all. My source proved it. My family knows about it, as my uncle was in the working class in the late 70s then and in the mid 80s he changed jobs to something way better.

[Ned]

The Templar, another in the long line of recently educated Americans who do not understand the contrast between the 70's and the 80's. The 70's were a period of sharp decline in American self confidence and in its world-wide standing. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan with impunity. The Aytollah threw out the democratic successor to the Shah without invoking any US response. Oil price controls keep prices up and exploration down while shortages dogged the land. Inflation had gone out of control while the president blamed the American people for its black mood.

Get real. Ronald Reagan saved America just as much as Aurelian once saved Rome.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Templar
He began this horrible rollback of FDR's New Deal.

You speak as if that was a bad thing.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Odin


Kent State, My Lai Massacre, Watergate, OPEC shutting off the oil, Republicans blaming Carter for things that were not under his control, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism, Stagflation. My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

Well, Odin, the 70's were a nightmare for America, just as were the late 60's in a way. The 70's began well when Nixon began withdrawing our troops from Vietnam. But he also cut way back on military spending elsewhere. This caused a "Aerospace" depression as hundreds of thousand of skilled workers lost their jobs. Then he hit us with wage-price controls that kicked off the very inflation that he was trying to prevent.

Then came Watergate, the stupidity that was Gerald Ford, and finally the truly anti-American Jimmy Carter who blamed every failure on corporate American or on the American people and who allowed American foreign policy to slide into weakness and humiliation.

I agree that Reagan was strongly anti-union. Undoubtedly, this caused the decline in union power in the US. However, an even greater cause was the rise of Japan who were able to produce more and better for less money. American corporations responded by moving union jobs offshore.

America could have kept those jobs had we reduced corporate taxes and reduced or subsidized the cost of compliance with environmental regulations. However. every attempt to reduce costs for US corporations was resisted and defeated by a highly Democrat Congress who purportedly were acting on behalf of the working man, but who were really working against their interests.

[KrazyHorse]

DD

Too bad your country had FDR in the 30s and mine had Mackenzie King and Bennett.

We'd actually have appreciated what FDR did for you...

[DinoDoc]

Re: DD

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
We'd actually have appreciated what FDR did for you...

You enjoy PM's that openly violate your Constitution.

[Drake Tungsten]

Doesn't the Canadian constitution allow the PM to do whatever he wants anyway?

[Saras]

Originally posted by The Templar


For those of us who love America, Reagan was a terrible Yeah, insulate the corporations from the will of the people. Gee, and I though democracy was American.

You'd rather let "the will of the people" run corporations?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You speak as if that was a bad thing.

I do believe you would disagree with my stand on universal healthcare as well.

New Deal, lets see. You live in Mississippi, a poor state. I live in New York, a rich state. In terms of federal tax dollars, we pay more than we get back in programs. You get more back in programs than you pay in. This started with the New Deal. Frankly, I am quite happy to assure that, on my dime, rural Mississippi (i.e. the whole state), starting in the 30s, was the beneficiary of federal spending that spread electrification and indoor plumbing. Later, this assured universal telephone service. I'd prefer you build mass transit instead of more freeways - but, ok, I can understand how you don't want dirt roads. The New Deal is what maked Mississippi a tolerable place to live.

What gets me is that southerners are always the first ones to complain about taxes and Big Gubbament. Of course, this goes against the fact that government programs have largely built the south's infrastructure and that the South largely benefits from our federal progressive tax structure.

Saras

The people like to breath clean air, drink clean water, and have cancer free kids. I would even go so far as to say that people value these things over having a job. Go ahead ask anyone whether they would trade their kid's health for a better job.

From the 30s on, there was a strong puysh for greater government regulation in terms of on-the-job safety, and later for the health of the environment. Industry ain't going to stop polluting on its own (this is essentially the colective action problem - no one is going to pay the cost of cleaning up unless everyone is forced to do likewise).

So yeah, I want the will of the people regulating job safety and environmental impacts.

Ned

You miss my point, the Ayatollah's popularity was a direct consequence of the Shah. We supported the Shah, so the people of Iran didn't much like us either. We created the Ayatollah.

Oh, and Carter launched a military operation to save the hostages. The military promptly ****ed it up. What did Reagan do? Oh yeah, he cut a deal - what a toughie. You see Carter knew when to be tough and when to negotiate.

Also, Japan was heavily unionized and was kicking our asses.

Now I will admit that Reagan did alot to inspire confidence. Then again, i think anyone who wasn't Carter or Ford could have done that job.