I hate to break this to you guys, but . . .

[Drake Tungsten]

The breadbasket, yes, the Heart? Under what strange definition?

The Midwest is the heart of America because it is the bastion for the best characteristics of the American people. Ideals, like hard work, thriftiness, modesty and decency, that have disappeared in many areas of the country are still going strong in the Midwest. The Midwest is the soul of America, a throwback to the days before the pressures of modern life destroyed community, family and the rest of old American society.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The Midwest is the heart of America because it is the bastion for the best characteristics of the American people. Ideals, like hard work, thriftiness, modesty and decency, that have disappeared in many areas of the country are still going strong in the Midwest. The Midwest is the soul of America, a throwback to the days before the pressures of modern life destroyed community, family and the rest of old American society.

You mean then that the midwest sees itself as a fantasy land that never really existed anywhere in America, and thus claism to be the heart of America even though most of what makes America distinctive has little to do with it?

All those tendancies you stated are common in all agricultural regions. I am sure farmers in the middle of Ethiopia are hard working, thrifty, modest and decent. That does not make them Americans. I am sure the very same tendencies are strong in Switzerland, or Southern France. That does not make them Americans.

As for "old American society", that also included sexism, racism, and countless other things. Thank god it is gone. When people think of Aerica, or the American dream, they think of places like California, or Texas, or New York, NOT Nebraska, or Iowa, or Kansas. There is a reason people talk about "making it" when they make it to the big city.

Think of our founding father, Washington, Franklyn, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, madison. Onloy Jefferson would have thought the MIdwest as some sort of American Utopia. Good think the temperment of Hamilton and Franklyn came out ahead. That made the US the greatest world power, not the "values of the Heartland".

[Imran Siddiqui]

You sometimes do say very funny things Imran..the south runs America?

Um... YEAH! Look at the last two Presidents. The Senate Majority leader (and the last one). Prior House Majority Leaders. The South dominates the politics of the US. Not just Republican but Democrat. Al Gore and Bill Clinton were Southern Democrats. Sam Rayburn, one of the most powerful Democrats since 1950 was a Southern boy. Newt Gingrich of the Republican Revolution in 1994 is a Southerner.

Look at all the Presidents since WW2. Truman - Midwest (or South depending on how you see Missouri), Eisenhower - Midwest (but born in Texas), Kennedy - NorthEast, Johnson - South, Nixon - West, Carter - South, Reagan - Midwest (Illinois), Bush 41 - NorthEast, Clinton - South, Bush 43 - South.

That's 4 out of 10 (using the most liberal standard), 40%, and in the last 40 years it's been 4 out of 7, about 57%.

The House and Senate have always had extremely strong Southern leadership. There has never been a 'NorthEastern' strategy or 'Western' strategy, but I'm sure you've heard of the 'Southern' strategy.

The Northeast and Pacific Northwest/Silicon Valley/Bay Area are the brains. The best academics, tech people, lawyers and financiers. These are also the soul of our little commercial republic.

The midwest is the stomach - converting raw material into energy and stuff. They serve both brain and penis, but never can be the boss.

The south is the penis of our little republic. Stupid and irrational - i.e. hung up on evangelical mystical crap instead of reason. Moreover, much like a penis it seeks to be the brain. Bush is just a hard-on so to speak - displacing the power of the reasonable people in the country in favor of religious zealots and market fundamentalists.

The President and a great number of the House and Senate leadership (more so than any other part of the country) are from the South. They run things. The brain runs the body and tells it what to do.

The NorthEast is the penis because it thinks it runs things and believes itself to be more important than it is.

The MidAtlantic, MidWest, and West are important organs, as I've said. It's where a majority of the stuff gets done. After all, I'd consider New York to be as important as all of the NorthEast put together.

[GePap]

Southerners who move out aren't the South.

You never ehar any of those other terms becuase most parts of the country are not seen a monolithic. No one confuses NJ with Mass, but what is the difference between Miss and Alabama and Arkansas?

The Southern states that do matter are increasingly filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about the "South", like Hispanics in Texas and Florida, and exiled other in Georgia and NC.

I could just as well say that cause Wall Street is in NY, and the business of America is business, that NY is the most important single place in the US. (with Washington DC a close second).

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The NorthEast is the penis because it thinks it runs things and believes itself to be more important than it is.

Without the Northeast, the rest of this country would be a real dump. Someone really has to subsidize those poverty ridden or boring as hell spots in those areas you think so important.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No one confuses NJ with Mass

Seeing that New Jersey is a Mid Atlantic state and Massachusettes is a NorthEastern state, I can see why.

I could just as well say that cause Wall Street is in NY, and the business of America is business, that NY is the most important single place in the US. (with Washington DC a close second).

Well duh... and they are both in the MidAtlantic, which I've said are important organs.

The Southern states that do matter are increasingly filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about the "South", like Hispanics in Texas and Florida, and exiled other in Georgia and NC.

You mean like NYC is filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about 'the City'?

It just proves the South is more desirable... seeing that is where all the electoral votes (which means people) are moving to... that and the SouthWest.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Without the Northeast, the rest of this country would be a real dump.

Yes, I'm sure Boston runs things. The city is just a wannabe NYC.

[MRT144]

notice imran put reagan as illinois despite his political career starting in california.

[Imran Siddiqui]

notice imran put reagan as illinois despite his political career starting in california.

He was born and raised in Illinois. If you use starting political career as where they are from, then where does Eisenhower go?

And Woodrow Wilson... who is ALWAYS considered a Virginian, though his political career started in New Jersey.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Seeing that New Jersey is a Mid Atlantic state and Massachusettes is a NorthEastern state, I can see why.

Oh, I assumed that you lupmed NY as the NOrtheast. Leave NY and Nj out, and the northeast is nothing more than a small collection of little states, which do not really think they matter.

You mean like NYC is filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about 'the City'?

Which people who don;t care about the city? Given that this city keep filling itself with immigrants, I can't see where they would be, given that if you don;t like NYC, you move out quickly. Besides, this city has a strange history so people are very parochial and neighboorhood oriented.

It just proves the South is more desirable... seeing that is where all the electoral votes (which means people) are moving to... that and the SouthWest.

More desireable? Only a few states in it are really prizes, like Florida and Texas. Most key battleground states remain in the Midwest, like Ohio, Michigan, and so forth. And if the idea is electoral votes, Cali becomes the most important state in the union, bar none.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, I assumed that you lupmed NY as the NOrtheast. Leave NY and Nj out, and the northeast is nothing more than a small collection of little states, which do not really think they matter.

Massachusettes sure does think it matters... or maybe that is just Harvard and BC types .

New York and New Jersey can't be in the same catagory as Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusettes, Rhode Island, and Maine because of the differences in beginnings and different cultures.

Though CT is really more and more a suburb of NYC, so I'm not sure where I'd put that anymore.

Besides, this city has a strange history so people are very parochial and neighboorhood oriented.

Exactly. There are very few who care about 'The City' as a whole... so it doesn't matter if the same is occuring in the South, does it?

More desireable? Only a few states in it are really prizes, like Florida and Texas. Most key battleground states remain in the Midwest, like Ohio, Michigan, and so forth. And if the idea is electoral votes, Cali becomes the most important state in the union, bar none.

No, the idea is INCREASE in electoral votes, showing where people are moving to. The big winners, IIRC, were Arizona (SW), Texas, Florida, Virginia, and, I believe, Georgia. While the Great Lakes, Mid-Atlantic, and NorthEast have lost a ton.

edit: Though a LOT of Florida isn't really 'Southern'. And the South is sometimes broken up into South and Deep South. Deep South consisting of Arkansas and Louisiana to Georgia.

[MRT144]

Imran, you represent politically your state that you were elected to, not the one you grew up in.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran, you represent politically your state that you were elected to, not the one you grew up in.

But your experiences are colored by the state you grew up in. Reagan definetly didn't lead as a Californian would. His policies definetly were colored by his MidWest upbringing.

Just like Wilson, who while Governor of New Jersey was colored by his Virginia upbringing.

And you have to admit, while economically powerful, California doesn't really lead the rest of the country politically in much.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Exactly. There are very few who care about 'The City' as a whole... so it doesn't matter if the same is occuring in the South, does it?

The centrality of neighborhoods is part of the culture of The City. That is exaclty why people in Queens say they are going to The City when going to Manhattan eventhough they know damn well they live in NYC. There is a guy who is making a killing by selling sweatshirts with neighborhood names sewn in. So there has been no change to the culture, unlike in the South, were outsiders are bringing cultural pressure.

No, the idea is INCREASE in electoral votes, showing where people are moving to. The big winners, IIRC, were Arizona (SW), Texas, Florida, Virginia, and, I believe, Georgia. While the Great Lakes, Mid-Atlantic, and NorthEast have lost a ton.

edit: Though a LOT of Florida isn't really 'Southern'. And the South is sometimes broken up into South and Deep South. Deep South consisting of Arkansas and Louisiana to Georgia.

So only Georgia within the deep saouth has made worthwhile gains, while the SouthWest and Florida make gains? When people think of the south, they think deep south plus Kentucky and Tennessee. And even by your reckoning, these areas are not gaining much.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And you have to admit, while economically powerful, California doesn't really lead the rest of the country politically in much.

Cali is the pop. culture center of th US, and it's freaky notions of direct democracy are spreading.