Guardian protects woman, child

[Az]

That's true, obiwan.

[DaShi]

Will they provide a guardian for the baby after it is born?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

BTW, who is going to be raising the child?

If Jeb Bush is still governor of Florida then I guess he carries the can. Only guessing here.

Shame the clueless ****wit has already lost track of 100s of children in care.

Or didn't he make re-election? Iis the new governor any better with kids?

[Ben Kenobi]

That's true, obiwan.

So I have to show my hand first?

All right.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_policy.htm

But more important is the fact that, included in maternal mortality, are all deaths from induced abortions and ectopic pregnancies. Included also in maternal mortality are all women who die while pregnant from almost any cause that is in any way related to pregnancy.

Therefore, it is impossible for the maternal mortality rate to be lower than the deaths due to abortion.

Secondly, how different are the rates? Pregnancy is very safe, at around 7-8 deaths per 1000 pregnacies.

Finally, we don't have accurate results of abortion mortality due to the fact that abortion doctors have a vested interest in not reporting.

Now, this only considers part of the situation. What about after the pregnancy/abortion?

Looking at the finnish study, including suicide, women are 4x more likely to die within the following year after an abortion than after carrying a pregnancy to term.

Excluding suicide, the rate drops to 3x as likely. Looking at just suicide, women are 6x as likely to kill themselves after having an abortion than carrying the pregnancy to term.

These are staggering numbers, and need to be included in any consideration of whether abortion will benefit the mother or not.

"Gissler, M. E. Hemminki and J. Lonnqvist. "Suicides After Pregnancy in Finland 1987-94: Register Linkage Study." British Medical Journal 313, no. 7979 (December 1996):1431-4

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Is this mentally handicapped woman actually capable of committing suicide?

[DaShi]

You really believe that doctors who perform abortions are twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

[DaShi]

X-post.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The simple fact that a woman who carries a fetus to term is more likely to die as a result than a woman who has an abortion. More women die per thousand childbirths than women die per thousand abortions.

The statistics aren't comparable - you'd have to compare childbirth with adequate medical care and no indications of irregularities in the pregnancy at the end of the second trimester, to abortions of normally sized fetuses at the end of the second trimester. More generalized statistical comparisons are meaningless.

And that doesn't even take into consideration the mere fact of pregnacy puts a woman at her greatest risk of being murdered (though I don't think that's a real risk in this case).

Even if it applied, it's an invalid argument - that's like saying blacks shouldn't be allowed to go to some places for their own safety, because they run a higher chance of getting lynched. Asserting the possibility of unlawful interference by third parties is pretty spurious in determining the interests of the parties in any case like this.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by DaShi
twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

That would be me on the way home from work.

[Gibsie]

This is all a bit of a non-thread.

No-one would suggest the baby be aborted unless they thought the mother's life was in danger, and the mother's life being in danger is the one time virtually all pro-lifers accept abortion can be done anyway.

So that just leaves discussion of whether her life is in danger or not... where's the contraversy in that?

[Ben Kenobi]

Da Shi:

You really believe that doctors who perform abortions are twisted men who hide the shadows and cackle maniacally after every job done, don't you?

No, I think some believe they are really helping women.
These are the ones I understand because I can't see how they would do their job otherwise.

Is this mentally handicapped woman actually capable of committing suicide?

Laz:
Point well taken. The general statistics still need to be applied to each individual case, since some women will have greater risk than others.

So that just leaves discussion of whether her life is in danger or not... where's the contraversy in that?

None. Her life, apparently, is not in serious risk from the pregnancy.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Hence obiwan's point that he feels she would have been automatically at greater risk with an abortion.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I've read the article obiwan links to, and there's a couple of points I think get glossed over to an extent.

Firstly, the issue of self-harm with the possible intention of causing miscarriage. This gets dismissed, with the blunt assertion that there's no proof that this ever happened. I don't believe this. My reason for this is based on personal experience, and here at Poly people tend to get cross and shout "not fair!" when personal experience is called on, so I'll leave that there.

Secondly, the suicide/depression statistics can also be interpreted as "a suicidal woman is less likely to carry a child to term". That doesn't surprise me at all, and it's a slant I'm more inclined to take seriously.

Finally, to those considering pegnancy to be the safe choice, consider this. Among the OT regulars we have one whose wife came very, very close to dying in childbirth. We also have another whose wife is fighting an ongoing battle with post-natal depression. Childbirth is a wonderful thing, but it has it's risks.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Finally, a couple of quotes for balance.

According to Levi, the suicide death rate among males in the European Union (EU) fell by more than 10 percent over the past two decades, while for women in Western Europe and North America, the rate has dropped by more than 40 percent since the 1970s.

http://www.ivillagehealth.com/news/topnews/content/0,,418445_585015,00.html

A 1997 publication from the National Injury and Violence Prevention Resource Center reported on the incidence of violence among pregnant teenagers. Estimates are that abuse occurs in from 6 to 17 percent of all pregnancies. Studies of pregnant teens show consistently higher rates of abuse, ranging from a low of 22 percent to a high of 41.5 percent (Guard, 1997, p.2).

http://www.apa.org/pi/pii/emsctraining1.html

Then again, I never place much faith in statistics.

[Ben Kenobi]

and here at Poly people tend to get cross and shout "not fair!" when personal experience is called on, so I'll leave that there.

When recognised for what they are, personal testimonies are valuable. I just get picky when people cite their own experiences as the truth in all cases.

"a suicidal woman is less likely to carry a child to term".

That's a very good objection, but we don't have anything to suggest a significant difference between the women who abort, and the women who do not.

Many women who do choose to carry to term have unplanned pregnancies, and many who choose to abort do so from convenience.

the issue of self-harm with the possible intention of causing miscarriage.

Happens even with abortion available.