New Anti-Semitism

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

It still doesn't mean that when you use racist rhethoric against Jews because they support Israel, it is anything but jew bashing.

And what racist rhetoric might this be. I've said I detest the idea of states based on race. That goes for all of them. It also explains my loathing of racist immigration policies. Azazel made much the same claim in his support of non-ethnic states - are you saying he's a Jew basher?

I don't see how my rhetoric is Jew bashing when it is merely racist bashing. If there are Jewish racists I don't dislike them qua Jews, but qua racists.

Furthermore, putting Israel to higher standards than everyone else is also "jew" bashing.

Israel, as a democracy, should be held to higher standards than countries which are not. After all no one blamed ordinary Iraquis for SH's policy decisions.

Israel is by far not the only country in the world, which defines itself by ethnical or religious nationality, instead of a geographical, political one.

But it's the only westernized one. Besides - I want them all gone.

Infact, the proposed Palestinian state, would follow the exact same model, and will be a "Paletinian" state.

I certainly hope that it would not become an ethnic state, but it has to start out that way since the people in question all happen to be Palestinian.

But of course, when Israel feels the need to demonstrate it's cultural heritage in the state mechanisms, it's wrong and undemocratic.

Did I say that? I don't think so.

[Az]

I didn't call you a racist. I invited you to compare the idea of a Jewish State to the ideas of the BNP. Nothing more implied.

The Idea of a jewish state is like an idea of any other nationstate. I do not agree fully with the ideas of a nationstate, because I don't know what nations are, anyway.

Things I care about:
-Utilitarian ethics.


Some cultures are more ethical, and some are less. I believe the thing we have going on is more ethical than the thing the arab muslims have going on. Therefor I think they're wrong.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Azazel

Come on - It's not!

So it's defined as a Jewish State, Jews being either (1) members of a said race, or (2) members of a religion based in race of which almost all adherents are members of the said race.

Looks like race either way.

Come on Azazel, you are a comrade - help us crush religion and the problems it causes.

And what if I said I wanted a Whitey Protestant State? What would people say? What makes Jewish people so special?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Azazel

Some cultures are more ethical, and some are less. I believe the thing we have going on is more ethical than the thing the arab muslims have going on. Therefor I think they're wrong.

OK - this is where we disagree.

[Az]

Originally posted by Agathon


So it's defined as a Jewish State, Jews being either (1) members of a said race, or (2) members of a religion based in race of which almost all adherents are members of the said race.

Looks like race either way.

Come on Azazel, you are a comrade - help us crush religion and the problems it causes.

And what if I said I wanted a Whitey Protestant State? What would people say? What makes Jewish people so special?

It's not a race OR a religion thing. A Nation is something very nebulous. So there are two ways to get citizenship here: to be part of this nationality, or by being useful to the country. Israel is not unique in this.

Israel, as a democracy, should be held to higher standards than countries which are not. After all no one blamed ordinary Iraquis for SH's policy decisions.

these are two different things!
I have no problem on not blaming Iraqis for Saddam Hussein's decisions, but why should the Israeli government be punished for things the Iraqi government will get away with? Aren't you rewarding the villain?

OK - this is where we disagree

I'll gladly debate you.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Azazel

It's not a race OR a religion thing. A Nation is something very nebulous. So there are two ways to get citizenship here: to be part of this nationality, or by being useful to the country. Israel is not unique in this.

I don't think Zionism is nebulous at all. It strikes me as a well defined political agenda.

I have no problem on not blaming Iraqis for Saddam Hussein's decisions, but why should the Israeli government be punished for things the Iraqi government will get away with?

I didn't say I wouldn't blame SH for what he did, but the blame does not fall on his people. In a democracy, where the people can vote, they can also be blamed for what goes on.

OK - this is where we disagree

I'll gladly debate you.

OK - PM me then. Otherwise I'll lose my place. I think one PM a day is a suitable frequency to make a good debate. If we leave it on here, it will get hijacked by trolls.

[Az]

I didn't say I wouldn't blame SH for what he did, but the blame does not fall on his people. In a democracy, where the people can vote, they can also be blamed for what goes on.

This, once again, is not the point. For example, Israel is widely viewed as the most problematic place in the middle east, the one in which the situation demands rectifying most immideately.

I don't think Zionism is nebulous at all. It strikes me as a well defined political agenda

Zionism varied so much, that the fact that it succeeded only shows me how much it was needed in the first place. There were Religious Zionists, Socialist Zionists, Marxist Utopian Zionists, Liberal Zionists, Capitalist Zionists, Nationalist Zionists.... Zionists who's goals varied tremendously. From Greater Israel, to ambigous 'spiritual home for the Jews'. Practical settlers, and statemen, who pursued different goals, with little coordination.

OK - PM me then. Otherwise I'll lose my place. I think one PM a day is a suitable frequency to make a good debate. If we leave it on here, it will get hijacked by trolls.

I'll open a thread tomorrow ( It's 1 AM here! ). If it will be spammed ( like this one ), we'll switch to PMs.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Uber KruX


meh. differences of opinion.

hate crimes are hate crimes. people are stupid. after 9/11 peopel fire bombed a mosque in my neighborhood (suburbs, long island). was that justified? no. did i smile when i heard about it? yes.

does that make me a horrible person? probably.

you summed up my feelings on these issues pretty darn well

[Solly]

I think the Jews should go home, really.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Azazel


It's not a race OR a religion thing. A Nation is something very nebulous. So there are two ways to get citizenship here: to be part of this nationality, or by being useful to the country. Israel is not unique in this.

Yes, but in one way Israel is uniqe:

It is still growing at the Expense of another Culture (referring to the illegal settlements which are still growing or being new build within the westbank [despite current efforts to tear down at least the newer ones] and for which Palestinian Houses often are torn down )

I wouldn´t say that the arabs would stop hating Jews or Israel if all Settlements in the Westbank would be abandoned (or given to the Palestinians as part of their state [whereby the Israelis living there would be given the chance to become part of a palestinian state or leave their houses and go back to Israel]), but I think it would be a step into the right direction if you want peace somedays.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

isrealis are just jews with guns that ignore that whole not killing people thing.

Yeah but then Arabs are just jews on horses, so that can't possibly be it.

You know, I'd hate to ruin a good party, but Ming and MtG have rather short tolerance for jew-bashing, be it amusing or not.

I wish I'd know the English term for what you usually call people that say things like this. But I think such a word doesn't even exist in German.

Also wie heißt der Typ der was an die große Glocke hängt und beim leisesten Widerstand zu Mami rennt?

[Ecthy]

Bodd's, I got banned the other day for saying that to panag...

[Dinner]

The conference comes after several years during which European countries in particular have experienced new waves of anti-Jewish attacks, many of them carried out against synagogues and cemeteries in France by young immigrants from North Africa.

This pretty much sums up why Europe has been having such a problem with anti-Semitism. Multiculturalism has many upsides but there are down sides as well.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Agathon
Israel, as a democracy, should be held to higher standards than countries which are not.

That's total BS. Isreal should be held accountable but the Arab terrorists & murders shouldn't? The PA shouldn't be held responsible for its state sponsorship of a half dozen terrorist & hate groups? Instead of striving for a level playing field where everyone must follow the same laws you are basically claiming we can't expect those poor little Arabs to behaive like civilized people who are responsible for their actions. You don't see anything slightly hypocritical or condicending about that?

When Iran rounds up and arrests hundreds of non-muslims there was no outcry, as North Korea starved thousands there was hardly a peep, but the momment Israel knocks of a leader of Hamas (as self admited terrorist dedicated to killing Jews!) then the anti-semites come out of the woodwork shouting, complaining, and condemning.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Ecthelion


I wish I'd know the English term for what you usually call people that say things like this. But I think such a word doesn't even exist in German.

WHAT?!?! THE GERMANS DONT HAVE A WORD FOR SOMETHING?!?!