Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Is there anything interesting and new in this thread, or is it the same stuff in the first two just going back and forth?

The second one. I think I'll go restart the Coffee shop.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The choices are:
1) Come to work for me
2) Go to work for someone else
3) Set up your own business
4) Continue doing whatever it was you were doing prior to my factory opening (maybe the person in question was working, maybe not....the (admittedly simplified) example did not go into that

Basically, you are a slave with a choice of four different masters, one of whom is yourself. Historically, when workers tried to chose that third option en masse, the capitalists would have them crushed or outlawed. No one started out wanting to work in the facotries. They had to be forced. Parliament took away their land, the Congress closed the fronteer, the generalissimo's sent the troops to clear the villages, etc. Historically, given a choice, people prefered to farm their own piece of land than work for someone else.

We live in a system that did not come about voluntarily or by simple contract. Capitalism came into existence out of fraud, theft, kidnapping, and murder. We are the decendents of those people (except for some of the ones who were murdered). Our inheritence was stolen. So we tried to create unions to get better deals, and we were fired, beaten, massacred, and starved. We try to pass laws to protect us, and the goverment is overthrown by policemen and generals and ex-corprals beholden to the capitalists. That's how it's been for hundreds of years. We're only allowed so much latitude before the stick comes down on our heads. It may be a guilded cage today, but it's still a cage.

Capitalism is a system in which you get to chose between masters. Most don't have the option not to have one at all.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Nope....I don't live in a fantasy world (though you are questionable... Fantasy Island, anyone?). Hate to break it to you, Kid, but just because you "think" you're work X dollars an hour, if the rest of the market doesn't agree with you....you're not.

I could arbitrarily "say" I'm worth $300.00 an hour. If I did, obviously any job I took for less than that, I could b*tch and moan that I"m being "exploited."

That's not exploitation. It has nothing to do with what you think you're worth. The market decides what your labor-power is worth. Exploitation isn't the difference between what you get paid and what you want to get paid. Exploitation is the difference between what you get paid and the profit you make for your boss. If you make no profit, if you are not being exploited, then there is no point in employing you.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Exploitation is the difference between what you get paid and the profit you make for your boss. If you make no profit, if you are not being exploited, then there is no point in employing you.

If you don't like what your being paid, start your own business.

PS I'm sorry but your previous post wasn't a real answer to that come back.

[The Vagabond]

Quantification of capitalist exploitation inevitably implies establishing a standard of what should reasonably be the monetary compensation for the efforts in organizing and maintaining an enterprise. Once such a standard is set, then all that the capitalist appropriates in excess of that amount amounts to exploitation. However, one can't help but notice an intrinsic arbitrariness of such an approach. Oh, if God could just pop up and tell us what the capitalist really deserves for his efforts!

[Kidlicious]

The Marxist formulas don't work out perfectly, but it's hard to deny that exploitation doesn't still exist in significant form.

[The Vagabond]

On the emotional level, I agree with you: exploitation exists. But economically and scientifically, it is hard to work with a notion that can't be precisely defined.

[The Vagabond]

I don't remember who's song is this, but IMHO it is relevant to our discussion of exploitation.

Some of them want to use you,
Some of them want to be used by you,
Some of them want to abuse you,
Some of them want to be abused.

(or something like that )

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
If you don't like what your being paid, start your own business.

PS I'm sorry but your previous post wasn't a real answer to that come back.

Yeah, I know, but Bunnygrrl is chattering away in the background and my train of thought got derailed.

*** time passes ***

Since I just tried to inhale a piece of plastic, I really can't think straight right now. I'll get back to this tomorrow or something.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
On the emotional level, I agree with you: exploitation exists. But economically and scientifically, it is hard to work with a notion that can't be precisely defined.

I don't agree that it can't be defined, but it can't be measured. This is the nature of social science. Take demand for example. It's impossible to measure demand because of people's taste.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Since I just tried to inhale a piece of plastic,

I think there's an amusing story behind that.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I don't remember who's song is this, but IMHO it is relevant to our discussion of exploitation.

Some of them want to use you,
Some of them want to be used by you,
Some of them want to abuse you,
Some of them want to be abused.

(or something like that )

The Eurythmics.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I don't remember who's song is this, but IMHO it is relevant to our discussion of exploitation.

Some of them want to use you,
Some of them want to be used by you,
Some of them want to abuse you,
Some of them want to be abused.

(or something like that )

That's Anne Lennox I believe, but I can't remember the band name.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think there's an amusing story behind that.

Not really. Somehow a piece of plastic got into my asthma inhaler. I sucked it in and spent several minutes trying to cough it back out. At first I didn't know what I inhaled, so I checked to make sure it wasn't the top of my tongue peircing. Bunnygrrl was freaking out because she didn't know what had happened and my whole face turned bright red. I think I popped a bunch of capilaries around my eyes, and my eyes hurt, I was coughing so hard.

Very unpleasant experience. Tracheas should come with air filters.

[Kidlicious]

That sucks Che. I will remember to check my son's inhaler now though.