Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[David Floyd]

Just got back, and it's late, but one quick note:

Let's put the CEOs and VPs in their place - as the glorified secretaries they are. We should respect their logistical abilities but not glorify them (via money or status) the way we do.

Interesting you should use logistics and people skills in your example. I should just bring up that two of the greatest strengths of Dwight D. Eisenhower, CINC Allied Forces in Europe in WW2, and future President of the US, were logistics and people skills. That's right, the CINC wasn't a front-line soldier, nor was he a strategist by any means. He was, as you put it, a glorified secretary. Yet, this "glorified secretary" rightfully deserves a lot of the credit for Allied victories in WW2, in my opinion.

[Jack_www]

All the communist come when I am asleep, and when I wake up there is no one arround. Oh well.

In many corperations today we have what are called shock holders, people who invested their money into the company and now own a small part of it, depends on how much shock they own. So if the company pays out dividands to these people instead of the workers that is exploitative? Yeah so the people who own the company should not share in the profits?? Also any worker in a company and buy the stock of their own company and thus share the profits, is that worker exploitating himself and rest of his fellow workers now?
Any one who thinks they are being treated unfairly could always leave and look for anther job else were.

And I did not understand at all the tool argument.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I have held numerous jobs, and never once did I feel as though I was not being treated with fairness, or paid below the market value of my skills.

Are you sure you're from this planet? Didn't you say you had 4 jobs at once? That's not unfair too you?


You seem to think that starting your own business is the same as becoming wealthy. Do you know that the business success rate is very low?

[Velociryx]

Kid: I worked four jobs because I was unsatisfied with my rate of progress. At the time, I was going to school to learn new (and more marketable) skills, but I knew that the skills I had at the time weren't worth all that much.

To compensate for that, I worked more.

Now, I'm working smarter.

My choice, all the way. No one coerced me to take four jobs, I did it because I wanted to excel, and to accelerate my own path to success. It worked.

And yes, I know full well that not everyone who starts a business will succeed at it. I also know that starting your own business might not make you wealthy, but then, "wealth" and "stuff" does not define who I am, nor does it define my value as a person.

"Wealth" and "Stuff" are economic scorecards, nothing more. I am more than an economic participant. It plays a rather minor role in my life.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Templar: I don't know 'bout you, but I'm not a slave to the consumerist culture.

I am not defined by the amount of money the economic system in this country tells me I am worth, nor am I defined by the "stuff" I owned.

Can it happen? Does it happen? Sure. It's sad, but true.

The economic system of this country is but a small part of the whole.

It allows me to eat.

It allows me to have shelter.

It is my choice whether to allow myself to get so caught up in the economic system that I allow it to define me.

It's your choice too.

So yes, if you're hung up on getting more money and more stuff, then anything that stands in your way of that is annoying. Call it exploitation if it makes you feel better.

It's an illusion. An arbitrary scorecard.

Yawn.

-=Vel=-

PS again: And you agree! Excellent! Our physics guy would have no trouble finding backing (in our capitalist society no less! Perhaps that means we're not all consumerist, exploitative demons after all?)

[Kidlicious]

Here's the thing I see about exploitation and tools. Tools are created from, and maintaned, by the sweet of the working class, and the brains of the knowledge class. As time goes by the brains of the knowledge class begins to become more responsible for the tools than the working class. That's why jobs that deal with the creation and maintainance of tools are being created and at the same time the tools are replacing the need for physical labor that doesn't require high levels of knowledge.

Are the knowledge class exploited, or are they doing the exploiting? And who's exploiting them if they are?

[Velociryx]

I think too much is made of the term "exploitation." What would be far more productive is for each person (individually) to figure out what the hell they WANT in life, and go make it happen!

All this whining about: Hey! You're exploiting me!

No no no! YOU are exploiting me!

No wait! You're exploiting ME!

Is a terrible waste of productivity, time, and energy.

If people would stop looking for exploitation around every damned rock, bush, and tree, and spend that time getting where they want to be.....

Nahhh, never happen, I know

::shrug::

-=Vel=-

[HershOstropoler]

I wonder where all the commies are coming from. I'll just ask one question for my personal amusement:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
American workers are highly productive. According to one statistic I've seen many times, the average American worker generates four times the wealth that he or she is paid, i.e., the boss gets three dollars out of every four the worker creates.

I'd loooove to see the stat. Let me guess, someone confused turnover with added value again?

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I think too much is made of the term "exploitation." What would be far more productive is for each person (individually) to figure out what the hell they WANT in life, and go make it happen!

All this whining about: Hey! You're exploiting me!

No no no! YOU are exploiting me!

No wait! You're exploiting ME!

Is a terrible waste of productivity, time, and energy.

If people would stop looking for exploitation around every damned rock, bush, and tree, and spend that time getting where they want to be.....

Nahhh, never happen, I know

::shrug::

-=Vel=-

I agree with statement. Wish I came up with this. I mean I know that I am not being exploited, and I dont spend my time worrying about what unknow force is exploiting me today. There are people that need help out there, why not find them and help them instead of worring all day about the worker that is being "exploited." I mean if you work hard you can most often get the things you need and live a happy life.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I think too much is made of the term "exploitation." What would be far more productive is for each person (individually) to figure out what the hell they WANT in life, and go make it happen!

And does this apply to the capitalist system as a whole?

For me, the most important thing here was stated by Che long ago: the capitalist system (any system) is a purely human construction. It has NO inherent value in and of itself. It is a tool of humanity, but man has the interesting aspect to himself: he starts to believe that this artificial creation (Aren't all creations artificial?) of his is somehow real without him, and thus "true". The point should be what type of society we want, what type of humanity we want, and to build whatever systems get us to that end, as oposed to building one system and then deciding we must ride it out to the end, no matter what it does, simply becuase we have it there.

[Velociryx]

Preach it, brother!

You want to be your own master? Want to be beholden to none?

It's not hard.

Take a few minutes to understand the system, make your plan, and follow it doggedly.

Everybody will have different parameters for what "success" means to them.

For me, it means being able to quit my job, still earn enough money from the (::gasp!:: interests and rents of my investments), sleep late, play computer games all day, and basically vanish from the economic side of the equation.

I don't really care about it.

I have estimated that it'll take me about $300,000 to do that, so that's my rough target.

That is nowhere CLOSE to being filthy stinking rich, and frankly, I don't care. It's not a goal of mine.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I think too much is made of the term "exploitation." What would be far more productive is for each person (individually) to figure out what the hell they WANT in life, and go make it happen!

The problem is that exploitation is a significant part of the system. If everyone stopped working the jobs that you say they are willing to do, the system would stop. Exploitation is exactly what makes capitalism productive, and it is exaxtly what will make it collapse. As the working class is no longer needed in the numbers they once were capitalism will not be able to provide for them.

[Velociryx]

GePap: It (my statement) is not applicable to any "system" capitalist or otherwise. Simply a statement about HUMAN action.

I can spend all day every day looking over first this shoulder, then that, fretting about who has more, and who's "exploiting" me, or, I can figure out what I want, and go after it.

You guys can sit there, paralyzed into inactivity by worry over exploitation (imagined or not) all you want....I'm off to accomplish my goals, fulfill my dreams, and make my desires a reality.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

:: big stretch and yawn :: (still waking up)

Kid, there are some communist countries right now, around the world. Pick one. Move there. Try it out.

See if you feel it is less exploitive.

We're not even speaking the same language.

Call it exploitation if you feel better doing so.

I know, I know, "rent" is evil. Satanic, even. Horrifying.

So, if you don't want to be "exploited" stop playing the game! Buy your OWN equipment. Start your OWN business. If you want, you can even hire employees, and give them the full measure of their productivity.

Right now.

Today.

Would that not be proof positive that the notion you are fronting works?

If you started your own company and modelled it along communist lines?

Try it.

See what happens.

If it works, you will be effecting change.

If not, you'll figure out why it failed.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
You guys can sit there, paralyzed into inactivity by worry over exploitation (imagined or not) all you want....I'm off to accomplish my goals, fulfill my dreams, and make my desires a reality.

-=Vel=-

Why are you saying that people are paralyzed into inactivity?