Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[DAVOUT]

The Templar argument is that the very important research is initiated or completely done by the state in a system where the capitalism runs the economy. From that, he tends to conclude that the capitalism is imperfect, and that other systems could work.

My conclusion is, on the contrary, that in a society where the individualism is a core value, the fact that most of the economy is run along the capitalist principle does not prevent the higher need of the society to be met by the state, when and where there is no other rational solution.

The Templar argument is in favor of the capitalism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid arguing for equality of outcomes

Read my posts or stop speaking for me.

[Velociryx]

Correction/Clarification:

Debating the merits of a system that does not exist and has NEVER existed, and comparing such a conjecutural system against capitalism as it is in practice in the here and now (which is what you'd like to do) is meaningless.

To make it an apples to apples comparison, if we're going to compare communism to capitalism, then we need to compare them as they have been implemented.

If we're going to look at the theory, then IMO, the best place to start is in the revolution itself....what form will it take (three different answers so far), and how will it be different "this time" so that it doesn't lead to the same song and dance as every other communist implementation has led to.

THAT's worth talking about! The rest is just fluff.

And Kid, your posts speak loud and clear all by themselves, bud. No need for me to speak for them.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I don’t have to. I’m arguing from the side that’s working *in practice* (that phrase again…dontcha love it!) right now. He’s already admitted that his is pure theory. It’s up to your side to prove it. We’re not going to do your debating for you.

Well you keep saying that it's working and I keep bringing up things like unemployment, depression, inequality, poverty, crime and the third world. If you want to keep using this 'it's working' argument go ahead, but you are losing it.

[Spiffor]

I'm not a dweller of this thread and I don't intend to be, but I have a small reservation over what Vel has wrote in the first page IIRC.

He argued that the economic well-being of the capitalist USA was vastly superior to the economic well-being of USSR. If we take the quantifiable elements (i.e amount of mass consumption products available to the average citizen), this is undoubtedly true.

Howver, the idea that Soviet citizens were dead poor or dead unequipped is wrong, at least if you consider urban Soviets during the times of Brezhnev - Gorbatshev. Whereas Stalin has only concentrated on heavy industry, engulfing most USSR's resources in it, consumer goods became increasingly significant in the Soviet / COMECON economy after the fall of Stalin. 70's and 80's COMECONers, at least in urban areas, had many consumer goods at disposal : TV and radio sets, increased variety of foods and clothes, heat and habitation, and the lucky ones had their personal car.

I think the relatively poor development of consumer goods came from the fact that the economy was still dependent of heavy industry and military industry, and not enough money was poured into establishing a good supply of consumer goods.

Of course, even the most consumer-friendly planned economy couldn't have competed with the capitalist Disneyland we are living in, since the concept of "artificially creating a desire in order to satisfy it" (read publicity) is completely alien to a planned economy. That's why there could have never been as much variety in an advanced planned economy as in an advanced capitalist economy.

However, in comparison to many capitalist countries which had begun their industrialization later (South Korea and Taiwan being the most successful examples), the Soviet way of life in the 70's and 80's was pretty comfortable.

[Velociryx]

Yep! Let's talk about those:

Depression: All sorts of reasons people get depressed. One of them is poverty. Another is standing in a bread line for two days wondering if you'll get to eat! Doesn't really strengthen your arugument, doesn't really hurt it.

Poverty: A problem in capitalist societies, true, and a plus for your side. There are 32 million folks technically living "in poverty" in the US. That's bad, but not as bad as you make it out to be, for the reasons I've already outlined (go back 1-2 pages).

Crime: Soviet Russia had a black market. Crime is not a capitalist invention. Again, doesn't hurt your argument, but it doesn't really help it, either.

The Third World: Is a mish mash of fledgling democracies holding on by their fingernails, and tin-pot dictatorships. About all that anybody can say about the third world is that it's undeveloped at this point.

That is neither the fault of communism or capitalism.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Good points, Spiffor, and you’re quite right….communism would never become a consumer’s Disneyland, cos it’s not really designed for that. It’s designed mostly around the idea of providing the same basics for everyone, which looks good on paper, but has seen shockingly poor historical implementation.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep! Let's talk about those:

Depression: All sorts of reasons people get depressed. One of them is poverty. Another is standing in a bread line for two days wondering if you'll get to eat! Doesn't really strengthen your arugument, doesn't really hurt it.

Ah, I'm glad you thought I was talking about mental illness, because that is another one. Remember that you keep saying that capitalism is succeeding. That whould have nothing to do with communism, but if you really think that we can't produce enough bread in the US because of the economic system you don't have any idea of the amount of food that we are capable of producing. We could eliminate hunger here in the US and much of the world if we chose to do so.

Then there is the other kind of depression caused by unemployment. I await your response to that. How is that not failure?

Originally posted by Velociryx
Poverty: A problem in capitalist societies, true, and a plus for your side. There are 32 million folks technically living "in poverty" in the US. That's bad, but not as bad as you make it out to be, for the reasons I've already outlined (go back 1-2 pages).

You did horrible at that. Appearantly you didn't see my argument that the poverty numbers could actually be higher than 32 million. Arguing about the numbers is a good strategy for you, but you should really be ashamed of yourself for justifying a system that creates poverty at all.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Crime: Soviet Russia had a black market. Crime is not a capitalist invention. Again, doesn't hurt your argument, but it doesn't really help it, either.

This isn't about Russia, but since you bring it up, Russia is riddled with crime now. This is about the failure of the US to handle crime. I've already shown that crime is the consequence of capitalism. You didn't counter that.

Originally posted by Velociryx
The Third World: Is a mish mash of fledgling democracies holding on by their fingernails, and tin-pot dictatorships. About all that anybody can say about the third world is that it's undeveloped at this point.

That is neither the fault of communism or capitalism.

-=Vel=-

Crap. If you don't want to accept the record of capitalism why do you keep on bringing up the record of communism.

edit: Ah yes and just to add another one of my arguments. War is another failure of capitalism, and we might as well add Imperialism to that. Hmmm... lets see if I can come up with more.

edit: Ah drup abuse, alcohol abuse and suicide.

edit: Sickness and decease related to poverty and inequality.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Velociryx
GePap: Even as stubborn as you are, you must concede that saying:

"as communism is working now in practice"

is the correct use of the word and phrase, not

"as communism is working now in performance"

And that's as far as I'll go down the semantics road with you, 'k?

drizzle...shower....RAIN!

As stubburn as you are in understanding: to use your example: one performs surgery, one practices medicine/ Medice=/ surgery. I guess you prepare the same for a drizzle, a shower, or a downpour. Your dry cleaning bills must be high.

And I've said from the start, debating the paper theory is meaningless. Let's see it in action, and then we'll have something to talk about.

"Paper theory" is not meaningless. Capitalism begun as "paper theory". Christianity remains "paper theory" as well, to a great extent. It is this disregard for ideas that I find so strange. Idea is as important as practice, and I place it above it, since it is idea that gets the ball rolling in the frst place.

That would be like debating the baseball game before it is played. Just....not all that much to talk about, is there?

-=Vel=-

Actually, there would ba a great deal to talk about. I wonder if you ever heard pof fantasy baseball? and what about all the talk before the World Series? No, you are right, no one says ahything about an upcoming sporting event: it would be silly, you can only discuss an posrting event after the fact, never, ever, ever before it has been played out. That would be madness.

[Velociryx]

You’re just too much, Kid! Okay, since you weren’t paying attention the last several times, let’s try this again:

1) Depression. Is a problem the world over. Sometimes (certainly not always) depression is caused by economic difficulties, and in those cases (assuming the person in question is living in a capitalist country) then yes, that’s at least partially to blame (I say “at least partially” because if the person is depressed because his/her whole sense of self worth is tied to his/her economic worth, then the person has deeper problems than “capitalism.”

2) Mental Illness: Aruging that mental illness is the fault of ANY economic system is pure tripe.

3) (subset of depression caused by unemployment) : Again, if a person bases their entire sense of self worth on having a job, then that person has more problems than living under a particular economic system

4) Poverty: Go back and re-read my posts. I don’t feel like retyping all of those long-a$$ posts again, when you can simply scroll back.

5) Russia is in transition. It’s not really an anything right now, other than an economic train wreck. Given time, it will sort itself out.

6) Crime existed in Russia, and it exists in every communist nation there is….if it didn’t…why would you guys need jails, and why would they be full?

7) Third World: Look it up. The third world is a hodge podge of barely surviving democracies and tin pot dictators. They have lots of problems. So many that which economic system they happen to have sorta running in their countries don’t even make the top twenty.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

And war...I'm still waiting for you to explain the justification behind every war that ever occured before capitalism was a gleam in Adam Smith's eye....

How exactly, was capitalism responsible for the Mongol invasion of China?

The Hundred Year's War?

This oughta be good!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

But in the practice of medicine, one can perform surgery….Bah! Never mind! I’m not going to go rounds with you about semantics. You pick the word, and we’ll use the one you like better. Happy?

"Paper theory" is not meaningless.
Read my amendment to that post….

Oh yes, I agree that you can talk “about” a game before it is played, just as you can talk about a theory before it is put into….performance. (picked one at random) But until it is put into play, it’s pure conjecture. What’s REALLY interesting is to talk about the actual game (not what you think the game might be)

Contrast My team is gonna kick your team’s arse! with Did you SEE that play in the third inning! He was on fire!

-=Vel=-

[Flare]

~shakes my head~ Vel, are you inciting a riot again? Causing an uproar? sowing chaos & confusion where you go? ~WEG~ I have taught you well, young Skywalker! Now join the Dark side & rule with me!!!
~Laughter~ Oh, well. Just having some fun. You start such interesting threads!

[Flare]

My guess is that a better furture economic / political / governmental idea would be merging & melding the best of capitalism & socialism. ~Shrugs~ But only time will tell. Humans are WAY too imperfect to be far sighted enough to implement a long range plan making the best use of them both.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx


You’re just too much, Kid! Okay, since you weren’t paying attention the last several times, let’s try this again:

1) Depression. Is a problem the world over. Sometimes (certainly not always) depression is caused by economic difficulties, and in those cases (assuming the person in question is living in a capitalist country) then yes, that’s at least partially to blame (I say “at least partially” because if the person is depressed because his/her whole sense of self worth is tied to his/her economic worth, then the person has deeper problems than “capitalism.”

Why don't you explain this theory of communist business cycle to all of us. That's a new one on me.

Originally posted by Velociryx
2) Mental Illness: Aruging that mental illness is the fault of ANY economic system is pure tripe.

Mental illness is caused by poverty. Poverty is caused by capitalism. That's pretty simple stuff. Psychologists tell us that. What is the problem with your logic. I guess you're just stubborn like GePap says.

Originally posted by Velociryx
3) (subset of depression caused by unemployment) : Again, if a person bases their entire sense of self worth on having a job, then that person has more problems than living under a particular economic system

I honestly believe that you do base your whole self-worth on your earning ability. That is obvious the way you seem to think you are superior. Sadly, I think you would have a serious mental breakdown if you lost your wealth. Our self-worth is not just formed by ourselves. It's socially conditioned. It takes a real effort to get away from our social conditioning, and you have a long way to go.

Originally posted by Velociryx
4) Poverty: Go back and re-read my posts. I don’t feel like retyping all of those long-a$$ posts again, when you can simply scroll back.

Victory by Default

Originally posted by Velociryx
5) Russia is in transition. It’s not really an anything right now, other than an economic train wreck. Given time, it will sort itself out.

Your big on Russia. Ok, whatever. I'm not, Russia is broke ****. It's been trying to make the transition for over 10 years and is showing little or no progress. It still suffers from the same problems it did before. The problems are just worse.

Originally posted by Velociryx
6) Crime existed in Russia, and it exists in every communist nation there is….if it didn’t…why would you guys need jails, and why would they be full?

Try to stay on the subject. We are talking about capitalism. I gave you several statistics that show that crime is caused by the economic system. Do you have an argument, or do I win this one by default also.

Originally posted by Velociryx
7) Third World: Look it up. The third world is a hodge podge of barely surviving democracies and tin pot dictators. They have lots of problems. So many that which economic system they happen to have sorta running in their countries don’t even make the top twenty.
-=Vel=-

And Russia has problems too. The economics system doesn't seem to be the biggest, although I would say that Russia is definitely worse off with capitalism.