Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I'll grant that war is caused by the aquisistion of resources dating back to the earliest conflicts. Slaves, women, food, goods etc. Don't lay that at the feet of capitalism though. Lay that at the feet of human nature. A human nature that naturally goes counter to giving itself to the larger mass collective.

How so?

How many men have given themselves in the name of the state to die in the wars of the state? And what is the satte but a mass collective, specially the modern nation-state?

The fact that man is sentient means with man anything is possibe.

[Velociryx]

/me wonders if GePap has ever heard the term "corporate culture." Probably not, given the singular definition of culture he seems to want to apply.


And IN a capitalist culture (used the word again, cos I know you luv me!), there is more incentive to innovate. Whether that innovation stems from state-funded ventures is immaterial, it is still driven by the same capitalist culture (as are all derivative products from it).

Yes GePap, I'll grant you, on paper, communism CAN reward innovation. The reason I keep going back to the USSR is because I don't give a rat's a$$ about the theory, as I have stated numerous times. We don't live in theory, we live here....you know....earth? Big blue planet as seen from space? And here on earth, as communism has been implemented EACH AND EVERY TIME it has been trotted out, it brings with it authoritarian, dictatorial powers in charge of a highly centralized government built around control of the command economy.

That's the way it has been IN FACT. Not in theory, but in practice.

And IN that environment, there is no room, will, or desire for innovation, because those same innovative minds can also be subversive thinkers....they could lead a counterrevolution which could threaten the power of the state, and we can't have that.

No big mystery, but you keep on imagining that there is, 'k? Cos I DO so enjoy taking breaks from packing to come back and see the latest!

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The fact that man is sentient means that man will be looking out for his own interests first and foremost.

Most of the of the wars of state that you mnetion come down to leaders of nation states acting in self interest.

The me first nature of man will never be subverted no matter how much brain washing and re-education. This is the primary reason communism can never take hold. A singel generation of brain washed communist idealists may hold sway but sooner or later man's baser nature will undo all the grand glorious conditionings. Think of it like entropy. In the end the most random natural state will be the outcome.

Capitalsim is that state that man's inherent nature gravitates towards. It rewards the individual and afterall we all gravitate toward what's in it for the ME.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


But the point is that resources are allocated through directives. Estimation what each person will consume is nearly impossible. The more people who exist within that system, the larger the difference there will be between what people need and what is being given. Your resources are not longer being allocated efficiently. There is also a limited amount of resources because even in communist countries, money doesn't grow on trees.
The government needs to continue funding factories who churn out forks even if everyone has all the forks they need. They no longer have enough money to fund say a toilet paper factory, and people want more toilet paper then there is available. Now they are forced to use bark, or pinecones.

Absurd. Did you really think about this? Why not just produce the same amount of toilet paper that we produce now? As the population increases we can produce more accordingly.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I'll grant that war is caused by the aquisistion of resources dating back to the earliest conflicts. Slaves, women, food, goods etc. Don't lay that at the feet of capitalism though. Lay that at the feet of human nature. A human nature that naturally goes counter to giving itself to the larger mass collective.

This is just your social conditioning. Remove your thinking from it. Capitalism isn't just the best system because they told you it was.

[Velociryx]

Og: That's exactly right! Communism is the best system because, although it has never quite worked out, KID told you it was!

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

I mean some of the things that people believe about the two systems are just ridiculous. War is caused because of competition for resources. Og realizes that but doesn't make the connection with capitalism which is all about competition for resources.

[Velociryx]

Oh! Forgot to add one more point!

It has been argued here (by folks arguing FOR the communist side, I might add) that equal outcomes ARE demanded. I'll put it behind me as soon as your side stops arguing the point....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Kid: Given that capitalism is relatively new to human history, how then, would you explain all wars fought prior to its existence? Can't be capitalism's fault, since ummm....it wasn't even a glimmer in anybody's eye, but hey! Sure, let's blame every war from the stone ages on up on capitalism!

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I realize very well that the desire to aquire resources power glory(a form of immortality) are root causes for war.

My point though is that regardless of government or economic structure it is inherent to man innate nature. Capitialism or for that matter communism is no more the cause of death than the weapons used to cause death. The motives are the real cause and unfortunately the motives are part and parcel of human nature. Any further discussions laying the balme on a form of governement is specious IMO.

My greater point is once you realize the nature of man, you realize the fallacy of sustained communal behavior as it will allways degenerate into something more aligned with human nature. It just so happens that capitalism is musch more aligned with human nature than is communism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I realize very well that the desire to aquire resources power glory(a form of immortality) are root causes for war.

My point though is that regardless of government or economic structure it is inherent to man innate nature. Capitialism or for that matter communism is no more the cause of death than the weapons used to cause death. The motives are the real cause and unfortunately the motives are part and parcel of human nature. Any further discussions laying the balme on a form of governement is specious IMO.

My greater point is once you realize the nature of man, you realize the fallacy of sustained communal behavior as it will allways degenerate into something more aligned with human nature. It just so happens that capitalism is musch more aligned with human nature than is communism.

Come now. Human beings are conditioned by the social system that they live in. If we stop teaching people to compete for resources it follows that the world will be more peacefull.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I realize very well that the desire to aquire resources power glory(a form of immortality) are root causes for war.

My point though is that regardless of government or economic structure it is inherent to man innate nature. Capitialism or for that matter communism is no more the cause of death than the weapons used to cause death. The motives are the real cause and unfortunately the motives are part and parcel of human nature. Any further discussions laying the balme on a form of governement is specious IMO.

My greater point is once you realize the nature of man, you realize the fallacy of sustained communal behavior as it will allways degenerate into something more aligned with human nature. It just so happens that capitalism is musch more aligned with human nature than is communism.

A good short post that cuts to the meat of the matter.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I have a tremendous difficulty believing inthe concept of social evolution. The idea that man is evolving socially so that his motives for self gratification and a sense of immortality become secondary to advancement of a large communal whole to me is way too far fetched.

This would necessitate a fundamental change to man. And if one follows the arguements of nature vs. nuture would entail some form of change to the nature of man. Since we're talking a matter of a generation or two I see no reason to think that man will have magically evolved into a hive like mentality. Simple re-eduation (nurture) won't do and if it does will at best be a one generational effect.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Come now. Human beings are conditioned by the social system that they live in. If we stop teaching people to compete for resources it follows that the world will be more peacefull.

Peaceful people will be at a competitive disadvantage against reasonably violent people. This is how this whole thing started. I think you give too much power to environment in this instance, and not enough to our selfish genes. Economics and politics resonate on a very base level for human beings, where greed, envy, pride and fear are the main players.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Come now. Human beings are conditioned by the social system that they live in. If we stop teaching people to compete for resources it follows that the world will be more peacefull.

A nature verses nurture arguement if there ever was one.

I suggest you really look at human nature. Raise a kid very enlightening.

Slef interests are the first thing we either learn or are born with.

No amount of conditioning to overcome the self first mindset will truly hold.