Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Well you must think that feudalism, primative society, capitalism, and communism are all about the same.

All are imperfect if thats what you mean.

All are in some form or another taken advantage of by man.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap


And what does modern man have to do with the "nature of man" anyway?

Same hardware and OS, some different software.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Sik.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sikander


Maybe we can force people to be peaceful!

Seriously, how can you eliminate violence? It's a natural condition, something that is "invented" anew every generation regardless of the values of the society these children are born into.

Let's suppose that a society was determined to elimnate violence. To this end they endlessly repeat that violence is bad to their children, and intervene at school whenever a violent incident occurs by sending the evildoers to counciling. Would this work? Or would abused and neglected children still have a tendency to become more violent than others, their parents perhaps not around to scold them for hitting their brother, or perhaps serving as violent role models. These kids get to school and smack someone, for which they get a lot of attention, negative from their classmates and teachers perhaps, and positive from the counselors. There is a lot of self-perpetuation material here, and we've seen this cycle for a very long time. Tough guy is identified as violent by his peers and teachers / police etc., and accepts the role because it feels right (he feels himself to be bad). He is sent to counseling, but that slow work to become like everyone else 10 years behind schedule can't effectively compete with the excitement of being the bad boy, especially once the bad girls get ahold of him.

You seem to think that we can simply disincentivize violence away, but that idea has had a long history of incomplete success at best to abject failure at worst. It is completely incapable of dealing with various manias and mob violence, social pathologies and psychiatric conditions. We may be able to manage violence, but we are in no position to eliminate it in the least. Just this week I heard people chanting "No Justice, No Peace!"

I clarified that for Og already. I don't claim to be able to eliminate psychopathical violence only violence resulting from the competition for resources.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Kid,

The hell with the resources thats only the pretext. Its all about greed (wanting to have wealth), an ego trip, revenge and other more baser motives. In the end it comes down to being human.

Og

Whoops I spoke to soon. Our cousins the chimps are also known to go to war for the same reasons. Mayhaps they have capitalism and we don't know it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sikander
Actually the popularity of communism at the end of the Imperial era had a lot to do with the rapid economic decline experienced in so many new states whose leaders had been educated in commie dogma in western universities. Unregulated markets also played their part, as did interference from outsiders and domestic instability. This is a failure so vast it has a hundred fathers.

Capitalism is a bigger failure than any other system in history in every single African nation.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Capitalism is a bigger failure than any other system in history in every single African nation.

That explains it the Chimps are in Africa. Thanks for clarifying.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Kid,

The hell with the resources thats only the pretext. Its all about greed (wanting to have wealth), an ego trip, revenge and other more baser motives. In the end it comes down to being human.

Some people yes, but it must be cost effective. If everyone is granted a fair share of the resources almost no one will want to lose their share. The vast majority of violence occurs because poor people have very little to lose. Even when wealthy people use violence it is because they have made a rational decision. They see very little risk for their behavior compared to the chance of recieving a benefit. Communism makes violence a very irrational act and therefore violence will not occur in a communist society except for those people behaving irrational.

[Tuberski]

what's a fair share?

ACK!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Some people yes, but it must be cost effective. If everyone is granted a fair share of the resources almost no one will want to lose their share. The vast majority of violence occurs because poor people have very little to lose. Even when wealthy people use violence it is because they have made a rational decision. They see very little risk for their behavior compared to the chance of recieving a benefit. Communism makes violence a very irrational act and therefore violence will not occur in a communist society except for those people behaving irrational.

You neglect the innate need for people to feel good about themselves by being better than others.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Communism makes violence a very irrational act and therefore violence will not occur in a communist society except for those people behaving irrational.

So when the Communist Government started shooting striking Polish workers you agree that it was the Government behaving irrationally then?
If so

Ditto for Beiging square when students were fired upon.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Tuberski
what's a fair share?

ACK!

ARGH! I'm not through with those calculations yet.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
You neglect the innate need for people to feel good about themselves by being better than others.

Now that is not the nature of man. That is social conditioning that comes with capitalism.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

And thats where we disagree completely because that is one aspect of the nature of man IMO.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Kidicious


ARGH! I'm not through with those calculations yet.

And you never will be.



ACK!