Palestinian Refugees: The Right of Return?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
So you accept that Jews of the arab world are refugees, too? ( and in greater numbers, may I add )

http://www.meforum.org/article/263

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl102.htm

A, this discussion, again.

The definition of Refugee is clear. Most of those individual you point to would not count as refugees under the given definition, specially those that left their homes in the 50's at times that no open hostilities were ongoing. If you care to argue about the fairness of the definition of refugee, lets go ahead.

But as I said to Edan earlier: if those Jews are labelled Refugees, then they would have the same rights and Arab states would have to either lest them back home or compensate them.

So I see no point of contention.

[Edan]

Right, now that thats settled, lets figure out about slave reperations.

[DanS]

$30bil? Israeli money? Yeah right.

Improper attitude. It's your obligation, even though there are others who would help you with the costs.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by GePap


A, this discussion, again.

The definition of Refugee is clear. Most of those individual you point to would not count as refugees under the given definition, specially those that left their homes in the 50's at times that no open hostilities were ongoing. If you care to argue about the fairness of the definition of refugee, lets go ahead.

But as I said to Edan earlier: if those Jews are labelled Refugees, then they would have the same rights and Arab states would have to either lest them back home or compensate them.

So I see no point of contention.

but see, the arab states would just say, you can go back, which the jews would not want to do now, because it would mean the disolution of their state as well as persecution in the region they are returning to

the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state (and so money anyway)

Jon Miller

[DanS]

the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state

There are ways of structuring a deal where the rights of the Palestinians are respected while the nature of Israel is preserved. While you may not agree with the provisions mentioned in the article, I'm sure you can imagine a compromise that would be acceptable to you.

That's the point of the article. This isn't a showstopper.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
but see, the arab states would just say, you can go back, which the jews would not want to do now, because it would mean the disolution of their state as well as persecution in the region they are returning to

None of which does anything to change what people's rights are. If Jews were to return and be persecuted, then we would demand that Arabs stop violating the rights of their jewish minorities.

the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state (and so money anyway)

Jon Miller

The Palestinains refugees have the right to return or fair compensation. Nothing you have said makes that any different. As far as the "destruction" of Israel, well, that problem was born the day Jews decided to try to create a democratic AND jewish state in a land in which they were a minority. Only the fact that 750,000 palestinains became refugees allowed that state to be both Jewish and democratic, but the Palestinains always had the rights to return, a right ensrhined after the horror of WW2, which showed us what was possible when HR were thrown out the window.

[Edan]

Originally posted by DanS
even though there are others who would help you with the costs.

Yes, like the reperations that the Arab states will give to Israel for those Jewish refugees.

Oh, wait, not even I'm niave enough to think that they would do that...

[DanS]

You never know, Edan. They might do that (with US help). Where does that question remain? I assume that this has been solved with Egypt and Jordan?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan


Yes, like the reperations that the Arab states will give to Israel for those Jewish refugees.

Oh, wait, not even I'm niave enough to think that they would do that...

Find the Jewish refugees (people meeting the definition as stated) and then you can talk about that. Otherwise this argument, as always (and defenders of Israel A;LWAYS bring it up), is a strawman.

[GePap]

And here is the defintion:

The Legal Definition of a Refugee
The law governing refugees and the processing of claims for refugee status is set out in the Refugee Act, 1996, as amended by section 11(1) of the Immigration Act, 1999 and by section 9 of the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act, 2000.

The legal definition of refugee as used in the Refugee Act, 1996, as amended, closely follows that of the 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and is a person who,

"owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his or her nationality and is unable, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his or her former habitual residence, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it, but does not include a person who

is receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations (other than the High Commissioner) protection or assistance,
is recognised by the competent authorities of the country in which he or she has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country,
has committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes,
has committed a serious non-political crime outside the State prior to his or her arrival in the State or,
has been guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."
[section 2 of the Refugee Act 1996, as amended]
"Membership of a particular social group" includes membership of a trade union and also includes membership of a group of persons whose defining characteristic is their belonging to the female or male sex or having a particular sexual orientation.

[Edan]

Originally posted by DanS
You never know, Edan. They might do that (with US help). Where does that question remain? I assume that this has been solved with Egypt and Jordan?

Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc. (And, of course, some Jews living in places like Hebron, etc)

I don't think there ever were any Jews in Jordan.

[Edan]

[QUOTE

The Legal Definition of a Refugee
The law governing refugees and the processing of claims for refugee status is set out in the Refugee Act, 1996

[/QUOTE]

Well after 1948, then.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap


Find the Jewish refugees (people meeting the definition as stated) and then you can talk about that. Otherwise this argument, as always (and defenders of Israel A;LWAYS bring it up), is a strawman.

There were 800,000 of them. I'm sure finding some of them would be no problem, if you actually bothered to look.

[DanS]

Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.

I have the same question as GePap then. What are the numbers of these Jewish refugees? Edit: Cross-posted with your answer.

It is a quirk of fate that the compensation coming from Arab states will be much smaller than that from Israel, owing to the lower value of property in the Arab world.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by GePap


It is hard to return when you are dead, now isn;t it?

Don't trivialize the issue.

The palestinian refugees of 48 are mostly dead, too.